Politics
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- TheBlueOne0
"Protect the borders, deliver the mail and get out of my business..."
People who espouse this type of rhetoric, and I hear it all the time, are just libertarian utopians. Who are just as bad as socialist utopians, free market utopians and fascist utopians. They're spoon fed, coddled, TV bedazzled morons who have no idea what human life is like outside or organized political society. Locke was right in that society is indeed a social contract, one we agree to live with. In reality, humans are neither equal nor free. Are options would be bound by the whims of the natural world. Take a walk around a favela in Rio, or in Somalia, or anywhere else where government is close to non-existant and tell me you'd want to live there. Seriously. All this "Government bad!" stuff is just bullshit. Sure, "Bad government is bad" is absolutely true, but government in and of itself isn't bad.
It is only within the structure of a working government where one is and can be a free human being. Only in a society that upholds the idea, in principle, in law and with the coercive power of the government, can humans be equal before an agreed upon set of laws. In America (or any similarly organized society) I and Mr. Trump are equal in the sense that we can have access to the same forms of redress against each other regardless of wealth, stature or place in society. Both of our opinions should be the same when it comes to choosing government representation. Outside of the social framework, that "illusion of freedom" disappears. Mr. trump has more power than I do thanks to his wealth. Outside of the limiting power of the law he can pay to remove me if I bother him. I have no such recourse. Within lawful society, if he damages me, I can seek my fair retribution. Outside of that, the small, the individual have little or no appeal against the more powerful. The balance to power is organized opposition. It is only within governments, working democratic, representational governments, that individuals have appeal to the full extent of their personal and political freedoms. So all these people who think "Get rid of government, and I'll hold things down here with me and my rifle..." are utopians. Good luck with that. You can take a look at the plains of Afghanistan to see how that works out throughout history. You end up at the mercy of every warlord that blows through. And you can assert your "rights" all you want while they pike your head on a post.
I also say that within the context of democratic government the general historical trend has been, as societies grow in population size, as they become more interconnected, etc. the role of social justice issues become larger and more necessary to address for the long term viability and continuation of such a society. Politics is the means to address these issues. Those that dismiss "politics" don't seem to grasp that humans are political animals, social creatures by nature and nurture. Our choices of social organization are truly the key to our abilities and potentials moreso than any technology or tool we create. In fact, social organization models are in and of themselves tools. One merely has to look at history and see how the power of say the Greek phalanx or the Roman legion had on that societies domination of their territory. Their weapons were not different or in essence superior than their opponents, nor were they necessarily smarter. It was how they organized that made them successful within their contexts.
One I think must celebrate and protect individuals, but also protect at great cost the society that harbors and creates them as well. I say a society that seeks out through a common sharing of resources to best protect those most vulnerable among it are close to something the best humans can strive to be. All our religions point to this. All our ethical systems point to this. Yet there are always those among us who will seek to selfishly concentrate power. Again, it's something humans do. It's something herd animals do. I think our humanity should seek to saddle and bridle our beasts.
I think there is much to be discussed and figured out if we're to talk about what constitutes a rational and just healthcare system for our society. And their might be many ways to achieve that goal, but I think, if you look at what is being offered to us as the routes to discuss this now - framing it with "death panels" and "socialism" serves no good, and is in fact a truly evil and self serving framing of the debate by certain segments, coming from equal parts greed and self-serving ignorance.
How can one even debate this issues intelligently when we have to deal with lies and false arguments, amplified through corrupt media channels.
Our system is broken and it's so fucking sad. I've given up hope really. I think we're truly on the road to fascism now. Really I do. When I see elites manipulate the mob, instead of fearing the mob, then we are in for trying, dangerous times. Sorry this went on too long and I'm not even sure it's relevant to anything. I know..I can already see the "tldr" notes...
- good lord TBO...zenmasterfoo
- Not everything can be summed up on a bumper sticker, sorry.DrBombay
- Look, If I wasn't over 40 I'd be going back for my masters and getting out of this design shit...TheBlueOne
- ..just waiting my breathe here aren't I...TheBlueOne
- being over 40 is a lousy excuse, spoonmanPonyBoy
- get off your ass and get on it ;)PonyBoy
- lol@spoonmanTheBlueOne
- :)PonyBoy
- not bad but a society is only a group of individuals. and a group can have no rights...********
- government is created to prtect those rights, not violate them. the healthcare owuld is a big violation********
- How does providing healthcare in and of itself violate rights?TheBlueOne
- "Our choices of social organization are truly the key to our abilities and potentials moreso than any technology or tool we create." indeedBattleAxe
- tool we create." INDEEDBattleAxe
- TheBlueOne0
Funny, I don't remember Bush or the Republicans appealing to the general public in Town Halls to discuss pressing issues like, I don't know, war with Iraq, suspending habeus corpus or bailing out Wall Street. I guess if they did that that would of made them what? Socialists? Nazis? Good thing they decided all on their own with no public debate about those major things, eh.
- just sayin'.TheBlueOne
- don't remember or don't know?zenmasterfoo
- lowimpakt0
the "town hall health care rows" are on the news over here noe.
it's kind of funny but the report are making americans look like maniacs and fuckwits.
i had to explain to my g/f what people had been saying about it on here to balance off her shock... :)
- noe = nowlowimpakt
- ha..I like calling them "rows". Kind of like a "bustle" or a "kerffufle", eh?TheBlueOne
- fistycuffs... gentlemans duellowimpakt
- dust ups?TheBlueOne
- TheBlueOne0
"not bad but a society is only a group of individuals. and a group can have no rights...government is created to protect those rights, not violate them. the healthcare would is a big violation"
- deathboySorry. I can't make heads or tails of this to formulate an opinion about what you are saying. Which group has no rights? What is being violated and what is being protected, conversely? How does healthcare, as a general goal, violate this?
- A group can have no rights, and government is created to protect those rightsukit
- What's so hard to understand?;)ukit
- Also, socialism is badukit
- ha i know its capt wowish, but sometimes peopel forget that. they say society, and try to drop off individual********
- ims till plannign on gettign back to your long speech later********
- ukit0
Like Mimio said on the previous page, public vs private education is a good parallel to what could be gained from having a "public option" in health care. Surely education is as impactful, probably moreso, on people's lives, as health care is. And right now we let the government handle education for those who can't afford it, but people also have the option of sending their kids to a private school.
Do I'd like to know...is public education bad too? Should be cancel public education and let the millions of kids who can't afford private school fend for themselves? Would society really be better off in that situation?
- PonyBoy0
i had time to think about the public / private debate as analogized by dobs and mimio...
... you stumped me there for a sec - then I had another conversation w/someone else who brought up Car Insurance...
... Car Insurance has a deductible to meet - the criteria in the end is rather simple though - broken headlight... you fix it... flat tire... you fix it... massive accident or you hurt someone/someone's property - Insurance!
... that was the 'flip-side' of the argument to the private / public education analogy...
... so now that I've had time to analyze the two - it just hit me that NEITHER work for me personally as far as valid comparisons to my health care.
If I don't want to graduate high school - well... so be it... I'm not 'dead'. If I have to replace my taillight out-of-pocket or my car engine threw a rod - so-be-it... I'm not dead.
Both of those analogies take sides - but neither are even remotely close to life or death situations.
I have a health condition that's not my fault - I was born with it. If I was born with a learning condition (which I was)... there's time to work with me - privately or publicly...
... If my car breaks down - I can take the bus... walk / ride a bike / call a cab...
... but if my heart stops - well... catch ya later, skater. :)
I just want the prices down... else I get to wait until I have a heart attack and am rushed to the hospital (of which they won't deny immediate care) or I can find a way to save up about $150k on my own...
... you'd think that I'd want Gov. health care... but I don't.
Just get the prices down, ffs.
- DrBombay0
And how do you do that without gov intervention? Talk real nice to the insurance dudes?
- PonyBoy0
intervention is one thing...
... creating a plan that they (the gov) run / control is another.
- ukit0
And yet...you have the option of sticking with the precondition-denying private insurers if you want;)
- PonyBoy0
I'm a small business owner, ukit (and I am)... and I want to hire a few employees (I used to... but don't want to anymore)...
... and I want to offer them good medical coverage.
If I'm already being taxed as a small business owner and on a private income level for 'health care'... why would I offer it to my employees or even pay more for myself when I'm just getting by as-it-is?
My point is that 'private' insurance / coverage will go tits up if you can get it 'free' elsewhere...
... therefore I will NOT be keeping that insurance that you keep saying we can keep. Eventually... it'll be more cost efficient to just eat the 'free' M&M's.. yes?
- As they mentioned before the gov option won't be free and if private care is really better, wouldn't you want that?ukit
- the gov will charge the those that opt out either way, pay double or go with gov.********
- and since most people cant afford to pay both theyll have to go government, makign private cost more********
- designbot0
Let me chime in here, public education is really not very good at all compared to private schooling, charter school, or even home schooling (when done properly) As a parent, I won't send my kids to public school. Now even though I won't be utilizing the free public school system, I still pay for it in taxes. This is precisely what will happen with government run healthcare. Everyone will be paying for it in taxes, even those who choose not to use it. Why should I have to pay for everyone else? What if some overweight American fatty is in the emergency room every week for heart problems, but continues to eat McDonalds for every meal? Should I have to pay for someone else making poor health choices? That's ridiculous if you ask me. The government isn't a charity. The government should do whatever it can to maintain a free and fair market, and then stay out of it.
I think what's happening personally is Obama is capitalizing on the current issues with the healthcare system to push for a solution that is not a good one. Nobody is denying there are major issues with healthcare in America. But there's such a thing as healthcare reform, without Obamacare as the solution.
Even now, there are alternatives in most states to people who cannot afford healthcare. State run clinics are everywhere. And most states have other solutions too. Not perfect, needs lots of work, but I think things like this could provide for the folks who got shafted and can't get or afford health care.
Remember if this plan passes we are talking way over a trillion dollars! and probably over 2 trillion. (estimated 1.6 trillion excluding the public plan!)
- ukit0
It may be true that public education is not as good, but think about what kind of society would be like if we didn't have it.
Why should you pay taxes, 1/10000000000000000th of which goes to some poor inner city kid's education? Because, that kid, given the chance of an education, might grow up to be the next Steve Jobs, making all our lives better. Even barring that, he has a chance to lift himself out of poverty. Why even have a country if we don't think we owe a little to the society as a whole?
- Hey I'm with you on this. But I still think when it comes to ones personal health, people often have more responsibility.designbot
- there are those who are unfortunate for sure. But we will be paying for the irresponsible as well.designbot
- as in the folks who are irresponsible with their health and life choices.designbot
- and their are far more irresponsible then unfortunate********
- designbot0
more interesting info:
According to AMA in 2007 there were 921,900 physicians in the USA who pay an annual average of $150,000 in medical malpractice insurance. While this adds up to $138 billion in cost there was only $3.7 billion paid out in claims according to the Kaiser Family Statehealthfacts.org.
- disgusting... and this is where I know dobs and I agree with - insur. company profits like this do not make any sensePonyBoy
- These statistics have been reported many time yet I still here about medical malpractice lawsuits being the reason that health care is so expensive. It's complete BS.Josev
- health care is so expensive. It's complete BS.Josev
- PonyBoy0
^ @designbots comment ^ ...imagine how many times over 'coverage' could be given to so many folks who need it... if not for the greed as shown there.
i want the Gov. to step in...
... just not to take over or even create their own plan... just force reform and audit the fuck out of Insurance Companies on a fucking FORTNIGHTLY BASIS!!
I fucking hate insurance companies - all of them.
You start killing small interest groups that lobby for THEM... we'll see a lot of change. This is where I thoroughly am disgusted by the 'right' side of things... the greed part. Disgusting.
On the flip side - there are plenty of assholes looking to file suit on a 'good' doctor for no other reason but to score a free payday
- If you make it more expensive for the insurance companies, they will just pass the buck to the customer. Again.TheBlueOne
- TheBlueOne0
Man, Fox News really is the channel for morons.
I mean, look at those graphics? And thousands of dollars worth of interactive touchscreen technology and you use it to make cookies and beer big?
- plenty of dumb shit on there for surePonyBoy
- Their graphic designer sucks, that's for sure.TheBlueOne
- she'd look better moving a big cock around... or bouncy some digital boobies... Fox has some porno hot women for sure. :)PonyBoy
- Fuck Fox NewsJonnyPompa
- ********0
Blueone
On the whole government is bad deal your right government is a must in order to protect individuals rights from gangs, collective, parties, countries.... masses with power that can violate the rights of others. Gov's are bad when they allow majority rule to violate the minority rights. Your libertarian utopia is on the opposite spectrum of facism/socialism. Socialism/facism fails becuase people arent slaves and it ends up being thug rule. Libertarian utopias fail becuase peopel cant handle freedom and dont understand ethics/rights and revert back to their collective ways of trying to rule through numbers. I mean if your weak lazy are incapable, but becuase youre human you have an instinct to survive you will likely gang in numbers form unions and such and try to live that way. Its liek prison dynamic. And like u said its a unreachable utopia right now, maybe forever as a limit to our species. So right now we try to float in the middle, but in no way can i see trying to maintain freedom as bad idea, especially when the other leads to soc/fac.The whole trump thing is correct, gov protects rights and doesnt let warlord brutes and thugs run free to violate rights of others.
The organization portion is a bit off. And sketchy around the issues of social justice to vitality and politics. This is were it started sounding liek jsutification for groups to have rights over other smaller groups. And the vitality also being medical care it was makign me think population control eugenics kind of talk. Becuase its either let natural selection/capitalism work its magic, or groups deciding the methods of natural selection through political power. And organization is greta like on a basketball team or war strategy, but way different then a organization with power over a smaller organization. i may jsut not be understanding you on this and leading me to fill in the blanks to make sense.
And for a democracy to work individuals have to have their rights protected at all times, and never allow a majority to claim rights over a minority, becuase groups dont have rights, only the rights of the individuals. The beasts are the groups liek religious groups, political parties and such that try to impsoe their collective whims on individuals. If you simply place highest regard on an individuals rights you shouldnt have to worry about beasts.
And yes soemhtign has to be done. ponyboy is absolutely correct we need to act to cut costs. i.e. better judicial system that doesnt offer XXX million for a bumbled surgury, which makes insurance companies charge doctors far more and then charge consumer more making our insurance go up. If you had caps it would likely bring costs down...unless there all bitches, and what i ahve been seeign is business raise price in hard times and then they dont lower them back, becuase its common sense now if no one adjsuts they keep their higher profit margins, and becuase of companies being owned by boards and investors they dont compete becuase then they will lose their jobs becuase competition means smaller profit margins. so id suggest in that case layign otu incentives to those that compete, but be really careful and dotn add to soem bubble. stuff liek that. becuase thats the only "real" solution. and by real i mean becuase tossign ti on the gov shouldnt be an option.
And by rights blue im talking private property rights, your earned cash. A majority shouldnt be able to vote for the minority to help pay for 1/5 the national bill. Especially when its a failing business model. Look at social security/medicare/medicaid. The expoential growth of the population cannot afford it, costs go up, tech makes peopel die slower. Most ill cannot contribute anymore or pay, so the system hemorages money until it needs to ration or practice eugenics. If this is untrue social security should be a success. So as we advance and grow our limited resources get taxed and we're faced with letting natural selection play out or giving up a very large amount of freedom, and committing ourselves to poverty for all. It is socialized medicine, and the collapse of socialism applies to the medical program. And i know the dems say its reform, or a few tweaks, but really theyre idiots who want to lay out the foundation, and when it does collapse cause of supply/demand, they wont pull it, becuase it will be too hard to remove and theyll switch to eugenics.
and on rights this is a lot mroe money and freedom then payign gas tax for the roads i use, or for education which keeps mobs of uneducated kids from forming gangs and robbing my house while im at work. And trying to form a more enlightened society of individuals. Sure gov has stepped on the rights in the past of many people, but those past grievances dont add to justify this large of one. One dick move doesnt make another larger dick move cool.
And then also being one of the last mostly free medical economies, we're also looking at innovation problems. Other countries are usually a few years behind, and im guessing its until we perfect the new things and then they pick them up.
Its admirable to want to help people, and any individual that wants to is free to do so, but no laws should be made to force people to. And something to keep in mind huxley wrote was peoples good intentions usually have bad consequences. People wanted to cure malaria becuase they didnt liek to see people die from it. So they cured it and the popualtion grew without resources, knowledge and such and was more starved and impoverished then ever, lowering the survival rate for everyone, quality of life, and just leading to slow death. Moral of the story is to work out the consequences of what you perceive as a good intention.
well im sick of this shit
- robotron3k0
looking for work??? I hear the National Guard are looking for a few good men and women to work in Internment Camps...
- and why DO we need 100s of internment camps in the good old USA??!robotron3k
- swine flu!!zenmasterfoo
- to watch them eat donuts ? lolBattleAxe
- ukit0
This has turned into a competition of who
can write the longest post lol
- DrBombay0
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/2…
China plans universal health care
- lowimpakt0
it's funny when you think about the NHS in the UK and even in 1948 independant doctors were complaining about the possibility of nationalised health care - calling it a "socialist tyranny" "power grab"