Politics
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- ukit0
You'd think conservatives would be able to name one country where eliminating the role of government and reducing coverage - results in better, cheaper health care.
You'd think if that approach was such a good one someone would have implemented it successfully, somewhere in the world, in course of human history.
- ukit0
Conversely, if involving government in health care is so bad, wouldn't we see evidence of that in countries similar to ours (i.e., Western democracies) that have tried it?
In fact, you see exactly the opposite - countries that have universal coverage subsidized by the government have lower mortality rates, lower cost to the government, and the people are happier with their health care.
Here is what Business Week has to say about France's health care system:
"France also demonstrates that you can deliver stellar results with this mix of public and private financing. In a recent World Health Organization health-care ranking, France came in first, while the U.S. scored 37th, slightly better than Cuba and one notch above Slovenia. France's infant death rate is 3.9 per 1,000 live births, compared with 7 in the U.S., and average life expectancy is 79.4 years, two years more than in the U.S. The country has far more hospital beds and doctors per capita than America, and far lower rates of death from diabetes and heart disease. The difference in deaths from respiratory disease, an often preventable form of mortality, is particularly striking: 31.2 per 100,000 people in France, vs. 61.5 per 100,000 in the U.S.
That's not to say the French have solved all health-care riddles. Like every other nation, France is wrestling with runaway health-care inflation. That has led to some hefty tax hikes, and France is now considering U.S.-style health-maintenance organization tactics to rein in costs. Still, some 65% of French citizens express satisfaction with their system, compared with 40% of U.S. residents. And France spends just 10.7% of its gross domestic product on health care, while the U.S. lays out 16%, more than any other nation.
To grasp how the French system works, think about Medicare for the elderly in the U.S., then expand that to encompass the entire population. French medicine is based on a widely held value that the healthy should pay for care of the sick. Everyone has access to the same basic coverage through national insurance funds, to which every employer and employee contributes. The government picks up the tab for the unemployed who cannot gain coverage through a family member.
But the french system is much more generous to its entire population than the U.S. is to its seniors. Unlike with Medicare, there are no deductibles, just modest co- payments that are dismissed for the chronically ill. Additionally, almost all French buy supplemental insurance, similar to Medigap, which reduces their out-of-pocket costs and covers extra expenses such as private hospital rooms, eyeglasses, and dental care.
In France, the sicker you get, the less you pay. Chronic diseases, such as diabetes, and critical surgeries, such as a coronary bypass, are reimbursed at 100%. Cancer patients are treated free of charge. Patients suffering from colon cancer, for instance, can receive Genentech Inc.'s (DNA ) Avastin without charge. In the U.S., a patient may pay $48,000 a year."
Read the rest here:
- The least you can do is keep an open mind and follow the evidence...ukit
- I made this point about Japan two pages back and the rightwing troll said "HAHA UR WIFE IS JAPANEZE. U FAIL."TheBlueOne
- So expect "HAHA. U TALKZ ABUT DA FROGS! THEY FAIL WITH FRIEZ! HAHA"TheBlueOne
- Failure Fries!DrBombay
- I hear Japanese women suck a mean one though. True?********
- Shittiest troll ever.DrBombay
- hey i read an article liek that with a different spin http://online.wsj.co…********
- mortality doesnt have to do all with healthcare, and happy is derived from the takign of a few and giving********
- to many********
- exador10
The whole thing is mental.
I know there's a lot of people making hay about Canada right now, saying 'look, they have it and it sucks' ....
well..that's a load of horseshit....we do have universal healthcare, and frankly, it's awesome.
don't believe the hype folks..
and certainly don't believe anyone that has full coverage and a fantastic job telling folks that have NOTHING how it's a bad idea.all comes down to some folks didn't see enough sessame street as a kid....need to learn a little about sharing.
can't think of one reason why it would be a bad idea.
although i can think of a LOT of very rich fat healthcare companies, hospitals, insurance companies etc, that might feel they're going to lose out for some reason.oddly enough, we have a lot of those same companies up here, and they seem to do just fine.
perhaps we have more checks/balances.....more red tape..i dunno...
but whatever the case, trust me....having healthcare is great....
anyone telling you different is probably up to something ;)
- TheBlueOne0
"The peerless James Fallows, on returning to the US after three years in China, the other day wrote a not-to-be-missed Atlantic post on the shock of discovering that the same sort of garbage that destroyed the prospect of health insurance reform in 1993-94 is being recycled to torpedo Obama's plans, 'it is striking to come back -- from the world of controlled media and not-always-accurate 'official truth' in China -- and see the world's most mature democracy, informed by the world's dominant media system, at a time of perceived economic crisis and under brand new political leadership, getting tied up by manufactured misinformation.' "
- utopian0
Typical Fear Mongering Republicans
- DrBombay0
These right wingers are going fucking insane:
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.c…- Fear does incredible, yet predictable, things to the human animal.TheBlueOne
- ukit0
I'm starting to feel pessimistic that we can even debate public policy anymore. Democrats are like the well-meaning, nerdy kid who studies up for the debate, and Republicans are like frat boys who don't really give a shit about debating, they just want to throw the other side off balance by acting as obnoxious as possible. I'm sure their leaders don't really believe the ridiculous shit about death panels etc. On the other hand, their followers do believe it, and eat the shit up like pigs at the trough.
- ********0
I love how you pinkos stroke yourselves... too funny. It's like you want to believe the shit you spew, so you just keep repeating it, over and over again. Obama has been an unremarkable president so far and has accomplished next to nothing, except spending money that none of us have. That's the fact, no matter how you slice it up. Will he turn things around? Perhaps, but until he does, Obama = major fail.
- Euthanize him!!!!!DrBombay
- Are you a Sagittarius?TheBlueOne
- He's a VaggitariusDrBombay
- heh, i can't figure out if this is real or a parodyukit
- AngryMob = NAMBLAutopian
- well lets look at what hes done....hmm...could be real********
- TheBlueOne0
Good point:
"Right now, in the US, the political discourse is a screaming match between two major factions that only agree on one thing: theirs are the only voices that should be heard. There’s no readily visible relationship between the left and the right in the US save one of antagonism. The right is against the left and the left is against the right, no matter what shape that debate takes.
One of the main reasons for that, of course, is that Politics as it visibly manifests in the US is mediated and shaped by corporate media. The 24 hour news networks and their various other media limbs, in order to sustain and grow their business model, sell a purely oppositional narrative. The system insures that the lack of a national dialogue on any sort of important issue translates directly into profits for the corporations that run mass-market media. This is why what should be a national discussion about a health care system that no one really likes (save politicians who get kickbacks from insurance companies) has turned into a screaming match with bold-faced lies and national coverage of supposed politicians ranting incoherently about “Death Panels” and telling people on national news that the old and infirm will be euthanized."
- DrBombay0
I agree to a point, but any extreme is full of whackjobs. These old timer republicans are fucking scary.
- DrBombay0
"The governemnt better keep their hands off my Medicare!"
- BattleAxe0
I hope this plan fails because then we wont have a single payer system for about another 100 years
- gullible idiot.DrBombay
- Proof = pudding http://www.qbn.com/t…DrBombay
- idiot , why? this plan is a band aid on a broken armBattleAxe
- How much did your insurance go up in that thread I linked to?DrBombay
- Wake up.DrBombay
- why botherBattleAxe
- Your insurance doubled and you think any reform is bad? You are an idiot.DrBombay
- Sorry. But what are people to think?DrBombay
- I don't think any reform is bad, just half ass reformBattleAxe
- which I already lowered my cost, via the thread you linked and the options provided by non assholesBattleAxe
- What would be "full reform"? Your statement at the end of that thread is funny.DrBombay
- TheBlueOne0
That's it..I'm breaking out the fisticups.
Who wants cream?
- ********0
would soemone explain why social security failed, and how an expoential growth rate, tied with technology that makes people die far slower going to be sustainable without ever increasign taxes, forcing everyone to pay into it regardless of how well theyre covered. how botu explain why when obama says medicare and medicaid are 2 thigns that can ruin this country financially, then skips over the reasons, and says to let him increase the size of the programs. you never hear anyone explain why those programs are failing. what ever happen to the social security reform. i stand by the idea if they can turn social secuirty/medicare/medicaid around then we can begin to discuss other healthcare. but if those 3 thigns are as big as he says and instead of fixing them he wants to run a medical ponzi scheme to pay for them until hes out of office thats fucked
- Social Security died because people forgot to use spell check.utopian
- No shit! Well now i know!********
- ukit0
Yeah, the media is fucking dumb. I get almost as annoyed watching MSNBC as I do Faux News. There's no depth there at all. Of course, health care is a pretty complex issue, so maybe you can't expect much but they don't really try, do they?
- DrBombay0
Yeah, we should have privatized the whole thing a few years back... So imagine if that would have happened. You would have people in the street eating cat food right now, homeless. And these people would be our grandparents.
All advanced western nations have some sort of social security system and you think we shouldn't... Privatizing it isn't a solution. What do we do with all of the old people? Euthanize them?
All you motherfuckers ever do is bitch bitch bitch about taxes. Wake the fuck up and realize there are other things going on in the world besides your paycheck.
- So becuase theres other thigns going on we should bankrupt everyone?********
- So becuase theres other thigns going on we should bankrupt everyone?
- ukit0
Imagine if they had privatized social security and then the stock market crash happened...
- exactly.DrBombay
- Deathboy will fucking glaze over it, guaranteed. Just not living in reality.DrBombay
- ha naw im living way more realistically then u guys. im not glazing over its sustainablility********
- yes some systems help and incetives are great and temporary but to set up a system that cant be removed********
- all on the idea hey it would be nice to have.consequences are irrational.********
- what if there was a market crash, high unemployment credit tapped gov supporting all insurance...********
- bad shit happens in bad times, but privatize gives u mor eleeway to wlak away from, without rioting********
- BattleAxe0
@PonyBoy
Full Reform IMO is a full overhaul of a system that has failed in this case, I would say Universal Single Payer Health Care for all Americans is a full reform . The fact that this current reform will bring down prices, is just a half ass Reform, does anyone know how that will happen, well read the bill and your will see that the Gov is going to BAIL OUT or subsidize insurance companies , so why your payment may be down , Insurance companies are not going anywhere and are still raping you . Like many I am sick of hearing , knowing, and seeing people struggle to get insurance , afraid to leave a job, or make a move in life because they feel the need to stay at their job because they do not want to loose their insurance .The reason I want this to fail , is because as I stated above I feel it should be all or nothing, the Gov is taking over but you still have to pay , who the fuck wins there
- not PB, @ DrBBattleAxe
- Aren't you the guy that basically thinks Washington can get nothing done?DrBombay
- If so, you wish them to fail so that we can continue to have the status quo?DrBombay
- So you would rather have higher payments than to see this work in any way?DrBombay
- I would rather them do the right thing, and stop charging premiums for healthBattleAxe
- ukit0
There are multiple levels of success here. People are framing it like a showdown between public option or no public option but I'm not sure Obama is even all that dedicated to a public option.
The "non public option" version of the bill is going to contain subsidies to help lower/ middle class families buy insurance, there will be an element of "insurance reform" where insurance companies agree not to turn away people with preexisting conditions in exchange for penalties for businesses above a certain income level not providing health care.
And if there is no public plan the Democrats may set up health "co ops" which we actually have here in the NW where people pool insurance to try to lower costs.
So those things are elements that are pretty much guaranteed to get in. I'm fairly confident that a bill will pass, if only because the status quo is the worst possible option and the Dems actually don't need any Repub votes despite all the screaming and shouting.