capitalism
capitalism
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- yuekit0
This is an interesting rundown of the Scandinavian tax system and how it differs from the U.S. People talk about the benefits, but they always ignore the revenue side.
https://taxfoundation.org/how-sc…
The key distinction is not necessarily that tax rates are so much higher but they are a lot more evenly distributed. Meaning that not just the rich are taxed at significant levels, but so is everyone.
And of course in exchange for that you get a lot of benefits -- so it's arguably a win win overall.
My question is could you ever really get Americans to agree to this.
- I'd guess not enough. Maybe if you could flick a switch and have instant Scandinavian-level public services and infrastructure.Fax_Benson
- we are also comparing a population of 330M to 21M.HijoDMaite
- too many americans don't want that kind of coverage, and prefer to slowly kill themselves and pray to jeebus that their afflictions will go awaymonospaced
- People in the US are suckers and used to falling for "free upgrades", so yeah, they would never comprehend "value".formed
- Plus, half the country believes "socialism" is the devil, but a dictatorship is "ok".formed
- A nation of Selfish Suckersformed
- Hijo makes a good point. The USA is too big to get a consensus on anything. It's like getting the entire EU to agree on a universal system.monospaced
- The last presidential election made this painfully obvious. Near big cities, people are rational and in favor of social reform. Elsewhere, not so much.monospaced
- And regardless of political affiliation, Americans are rightly skeptical about how the government spends money. It's got a terrible track record.monospaced
- American ideals at face value have always been anti-socialism. The words “liberty” and “freedom”, as corny as they may sound, are synonymous with America.HijoDMaite
- Except in USA everyone is happy to suck from the system without contributing.hotroddy
- don't compare apples to oranges. USA belongs in the same barrel of apples as Venezuela.hotroddy
- sted0
- yuekit0
- Eating cat shit; the new viral sensation sweeping the internet.bulletfactory
- Expecting a youtube video on how to get rich that show the presenter rubbing themselves in cat poop.shapesalad
- full circle full circle full circlecolin_s
- Cat shit crazyjmckinno
- Sufficient to get a catdrgs
- colin_s0
also fuck capitalists
- Why is socialism so great?Morning_star
- It isn't perfect but it's better because ideally it helps everyone more than creates a culture of greed that snowballs into Donald Trump as presidentcolin_s
- Personally I'm an anarchist but I get that's an untenable solution for our current state of affairs, yet to promote individualism in this day and age ...colin_s
- ... is fucking insane. With the internet, automation and a bit of common sense, the world could be cared for in a non-destructive waycolin_s
- Yet fuckers will always fall to greed because we're fucking idiot human pieces of meat with barely a lick of common sense and so capitalismcolin_s
- Why is promoting individualism insane?Morning_star
- Earpitalism you are driuing me arazyei_monk
- @m_s because there are 9 billion people in this world and a half decent, rational and conscious species would not starve its own majoritycolin_s
- ...for the sake of the excess of a few. The rich do not need as much as they have, and so much has been lost because so many are in constant paincolin_s
- Individualism fuels this and our lack of being able to create a system that all benefit from, given what we have available, is frankly embarrassingcolin_s
- @Colin. Do you have a political system in mind that could satisfy your/societies requirements?Morning_star
- I think you need to read deeper into greed and look at evolutional behaviour and biology and exam what at a cellular level drives our greed for resources.shapesalad
- Colin, ever heard of Mao?docpoz
- Seems like a balance between capitalism and socialism is best. I currently promote socialism due to the current state of capitalism in this country.docpoz
- I know many don't think it can coexist but NYC is a prime example of it working.docpoz
- Gnash0
- Don't let the dumb Muricans know about this.
#MAGAutopian - #resistance is feudalGnash
- #SerfdomUSAFax_Benson
- plus they didn't drink tasteless water, but they drank Ale all day! even the kids!shapesalad
- At least the president can't declare Prima Nocte... or can he?zarkonite
- Don't let the dumb Muricans know about this.
- utopian1
God Bless American Greed
As California firefighters battled the state's largest wildfire, Verizon throttled their data.
A Northern California fire department says Verizon slowed its wireless data speeds to a crawl last month, rendering some of its high-tech tracking equipment almost useless as firefighters battled the largest wildfire in state history.
https://money.cnn.com/2018/08/22…
FUCK YOU Verizon and Corporate America
- what was the cost of a better plan vs overtime pay? or even the difference of what they paid. Sensational article for knee jerk response.deathboy
- a bit of a joke really in objectivity. But i will say it was poor decision by an employee based on PR reasons to stand by policy. but not there jobdeathboy
- i do wonder how much funding goes to playstations and what not vs better data plan. or even building stations. This one station by a hiking trail neardeathboy
- me I'd probably peg in the vicinty of a couple million for about 3k sq ft. beautiful station and great architecture, but at what cost to whomdeathboy
- Jesus, was that 4 posts blaming the fire dept?? This country is truly doomed.formed
- docpoz3
Capitalism has its merits and historical success. The same can be said for socialism. I understand binary fanaticism as a rallying cry but I feel, like most things in life, striking a sensible balance between the two ideologies seems to be the way to go.
New York has many social welfare and housing programs that tremendously help it's citizens. Without them the city would be a war zone.
Strike a balance that works. Obama was a spark but what the usa needs is to socialize college education (not only to prepare for the job market but for quality of community) and revisit our health care situation. Many hospitals in the usa are a disaster and need funding. I will always recommend a private hospital like Baptist over the Jackson health system in South Florida.
Capitalism has become as top-heavy as the Golden State Warriors. If the people truly want to change the status quo, it's time to look at what Canada is doing an maybe borrow some ideas. Copying features worked for the Samsung Galaxy and Microsoft Windows and it needs to be applied to government in an evolutionary and competitive manner.
- socialism is only as good as it's people. and canadians are better people.hotroddy
- USA is more like venezuela, where people are low skilled, and are quite happy to take a piece of the pie without contributing to systemhotroddy
- Canada, like all northern socialist countries are hard working people. USA has one foot in the tropics.hotroddy
- But don't worry.. one day we'll get tropical socialism. It's right around the corner once millennials start voting.hotroddy
- socialize edu happened as soon as gov guaranteed loans. banks sold u college as something special after that. Stupid if u fall for it.deathboy
- college has nothing on a almost no pay internship. period. kids get 80k in debt to be an intern. ridiculous.deathboy
- as far as socialism merits im curious? where are those to be seen? u see a small solution to a symptom w/ subsidization and say yaydeathboy
- but what really inflates cost of housing? to understand this is an entirely different beast.Monetary policy is a big player. Which is not free marketdeathboy
- But that goes back years with central banks, and who knows if we didnt control it and get a reserve currency we might be entirely in a different positiondeathboy
- we probably didnt play fair but the us came out the winner. however that might finally be changing with globalism.deathboy
- canada isn't socialistGnash
- medicare is loved by everyone, and yet people, conveniently, dismiss it and don't see what it is (look at people "scared of socialism" collecting benefits fromformed
- the govt when it benefits them). Good post, it's what we should be discussing, but fear mongering 'govt is evil' has brain washed too many, I fear.formed
- You can make a good argument that capitalism does not work without some degree of socialism, and vice versa.yuekit
- Northern countries practise 'social democracy', not 'socialism'. There's a world of difference, and capitalism plays a key role in a social democracy.Continuity
- The sooner you Americns can finally learn the distinction, the better off you will be.Continuity
- "It's right around the corner once millennials start voting."
you know the age range for millennials? or are you implying they just don't bother to vote?pango - haha yeah millennials are already the largest voting demographic. I think when people say millennial they think of a 12 year old sitting in parents basement.yuekit
- +1 to Gnash: 'canada isn't socialist' but you'd be forgiven for thinking it is since our politicians seem to think it is toospot13
- seems to me you have street-up revolutionary socialism which is hindered by the fact that revolutionaries turn out to be bad politicians / dictatorsFax_Benson
- or top-down theoretical socialism, which is usually done 'to' the proles by entitled upper-middle class twits who chose 'left' at college and want ordinaryFax_Benson
- Mixed economies work best and are most stable. Here in Canada, we're mainly capitalist, but all health care & most education is public. Great justice system.BustySaintClaire
- ..folk to be grateful to them for doing so. Hence the working class tend not vote for them, even when 'capitalism' is letting them down.Fax_Benson
- Socialism is a pretty nebulous term, it can mean anything from a hippy commune to a Stalinist dictatorship.yuekit
- yeah, career leftists need drop itFax_Benson
- Some republicans use to and maybe still refer to us as Soviet Canuckistan lol_niko
- Ianbolton0
Skimmed through this, but it seemed relative enough to go here.
(How) Capitalism is a Product of Socialism
https://eand.co/capitalism-is-a-…
Remember though, not everything's political yeah?
- T-Dawg1
I found this video interesting, an economics professor (Dr Richard Wolff of Univ. of Massachussets), explaining some of the problems of capitalism.
Here's a part that's pretty relevant with current events:
The whole interview is good if you've got the time, and he explains ideas in a very understandable way. I'm not a fan of the intro graphics and music, but ah well.
- Woops, the relevant part is at 9:27 (still a noob at posting videos, even after 14 yrs :)T-Dawg
- Nice info. Thanks.bezoar
- Except marxism has never created a better society. Ever. In fact marxism has created mass murder on a scale that is un seen in human history.Hayoth
- Your comment makes me suspect you didn't even watch the video. I also suspect you're confusing marxism with authoritarianism.T-Dawg
- utopian5
Gawd Bless Murikkka, Numba 1
#MAGA Lives here
- Trickle down economics. Everyone benefits no?PhanLo
- If only these people could choose to seek better paid positions in other companies.Morning_star
- @Morning_star why not just pay people properly? It's a sick society that thinks it's ok.PhanLo
- @PhanLo They seem to be paying their exec board quite well. I also know someone who works in Marketing for Disneyland Paris and they get awesome salary and...Morning_star
- ...benefits. I expect that there is a queue of people waiting for jobs there, at every level. It's market driven. As soon as they find a lack of people...Morning_star
- ...wanting to work for them then the market will drive up the salaries. SimplesMorning_star
- The markets got us here.PhanLo
- Where?Morning_star
- Giant companies paying no tax and their workers living off food stamps.PhanLo
- ...and of course Communist Regimes. They love exploiting the 'workers'. With regard to Tax I think it needs global governmental cooperation, which will...Morning_star
- ...never happen. None of this is linked to job market or financial markets.Morning_star
- Why is it either runaway capitalism or communism? There's a lot of room for improvement in todays system.PhanLo
- I agree.Morning_star
- docpoz4
- I imagine this is how the planet will be saved: https://www.youtube.…PhanLo
- haadocpoz
- what could possibly go wrong?docpoz
- utopian0
- Just let the markets decide, it's fine https://www.youtube.…PhanLo
- ^ heartbreaking, mateOBBTKN
- How can the society as a whole not see how much of mess it's becoming?PhanLo
- Apathy. People just don't care. As long as the suffering doesn't impact their social media feeds or bother them on the way to work everything is just super.Morning_star
- That woman working 16-20hrs a day and sleeping upright/ sitting in a small car. Just sad. Respect to her though.NBQ00
- Inequality has really widen over the past 20 years.shapesalad
- This is the future we all dreamed of.PhanLo
- I wonder is AirBnB could capitalise on this somehow and start renting cars out in empty parking lots over night?PhanLo
- Maybe Uber could team up with them and charge their drivers for using their own car to sleep in. Create a closed loop debt prison system.PhanLo
- Maybe the workers could rise up and eat the rich.i_monk
- utopian1
Amazon is raising its minimum wage to $15 an hour — here's how much CEO Jeff Bezos makes in those same 60 minutes.
- This is not fair. Just absolutely not fair. And we, how much do we make an hour?NBQ00
- Does this mean Bezos could pay the full $15/hr for 50000 employees and still walk away with 3.75 Milion?colab
- Better get ready for the rush of customers at the yacht store.colab
- well... it's value, but it's not liquid. it's not in the bank. it's mostly stock value. a market crash and those hourly rates won't be realised as cash in hand.shapesalad
- deathboy-3
I've been thinking about this and I have a liberal buddy who is all about the free edu and healthcare and other socialist democracy of free shit in other countries.
It's not that we differ in end goals. As far as edu and healthcare he prefer it to be free, but would accept it at reasonable rates. We laugh at well I want free pizza too, and beer if possible and I think he understands it's not a "right" but understands it also doesnt make economic sense. But I think he's only looking at price and saying shit that's not right, but not really aware of market forces and reasons to turn it around, and as such jumping on any bandwagon possible that tries to simplify it in an easy term like david vs goliath. Like big pharma instead of patent rules and FDA approvals and even shit like the doctor guilds and education boundaries that allow practitioners to practice at lower costs. Licensing is a bitch and many other countries that offer cheaper solutions dont have the hurdles.
At the same time we both also have different value structures. He is willingly ready to give liberty for security, where as i will forego security for liberty. And this value structure is huge in the debate and where people stand. Knowingly live comfortable or at the whims of others, or risk pursuing your own end goals without obstruction. Not being taxed on success and enjoying rewards for living outside comfort zones. I cant stand being under soem unknown thumb. Probably genetics where as others love it. Survival instincts. You're weak you love to be supported (sounds like an insult I know but it is biology..even times i pleasure in someone else doing the lifting.) Strong you have no desire for support.
And this is the major differecne between collectivism/tribalism/socialism... ism's vs individualism. Capitalism in its purest form supports individualism. It offers a free bartering of ones work for another in cohabituation. That labors and energy exchanged are in the form of a transferable currency. And this can be exchanged freely by everyone in the most direct democratic system possible. More direct than 2-4 yr elections and appointees. Capitalism is the most effective true direct democracy. Every dollar every day is a vote.
The only people threatened by capitalism (by my definition at least, words are weird and can have different meanings too or emo triggers like nigger and cunt although just words) are people trying to retain power with nothing to offer. They're threatened by competition. They try to game the system for themselves. Which is another human trait. Self preservation and its strong in the weak and the cowards. Is it wrong? Beats me, it seems to win the most of the time, although it never seems to benefit the majority of ppl. Hell if i was desparate I'd probably run for public office too. Which is a problem. Same with cop problems. How do you incentivize people to run for office or even cops that are not power hugnry cowards. So few run on personal principles. You see it in all the ads about the flip flops when it comes to their jobs which is all they care about. I can probably only call a few principles of the hundrends and stil they sometiems wonder well shit do i want to please people and be relected or go unemployed. And these spineless people love campaign money from people scared of real competition. Hence crony capitalism. Cowards feeding cowards.
Which if you are familair with thermodynamics i think is the cancer in the system. The epitome of a healthy system is one that needs less laws and is free. The systematic downfall and failures in society trigger a individualist system into a more cancerous collectivist system. The more it relies on gov and regulations the more it goes into its death cycle. You can fight entrophy in systems but it does take energy. However energy directed in a path against the least resistance. I'm pretty sure despite the obvious info we will not deviate or fight the entrophy and provide physics a perfect example of cognizant people eaware of world still falling to the death and rebirth cycle of entrophy.
But to summarize the rambling I HOPE people see end goals are no different. And they question purely their own selfish motives. One of liberty or security. Even maybe accept they might be a coward in choosing security. Nothing wrong, its biological, but not feeling bad and making excuses about it. But own it. Say I want to have an abstract rule over others for my security. The early planations in US disavowed slavery due to security. It did help the US ( not as much as central banking) but most of slavery was economic and not race base. It was collectivist nature and protectionism that enabled slavery vs free market enterprise. The paralells of of self service in the name of a "greater good" always seems to know no bounds. Especially when helping the preacher. But again rambling...
I'll end with a reagan quote
which I think goes back to Michel de Montaigne 'I prefer the company of peasants because they have not been educated sufficiently to reason incorrectly.'- and any person who thinks socialistic programs have no cost. read road to serfdom by hayek. there are welfare states that are a mix of free markets and benefitsdeathboy
- but always a matter or time. central planning creates economic bubbles which will create some funny dictatorships. even the scandinavien countries feeling itdeathboy
- capitalism is not gping to go away. think of socialism as an evolution from capitalism. Where would we be without libraries, the police, fire and armydocpoz
- once weve reached a plateau in capitalism, socialism will improve things and balance things out naturally. read marx, forget stalin. he preferred brute takeoverdocpoz
- but again wwII winner and global finance and a reserve currency plus our large export/import and companies and diverse ppl make us nothing close to other placesdeathboy
- something else to really absorb before rash generalizations with things that really have little in comparisondeathboy
- doc you have it wrong. ill concede if men were ants with out any individual aspects they could form as a whole and beat any individualdeathboy
- but they are not. at least yet. and marx was an idiot. dont u see he only saw himself as a beneficiary and totally disregarded how trade works.deathboy
- marx is like reading CS lewis. People trapped in a single frame of mind trying so hard to justify their beliefs emotionally, not logicallydeathboy
- actually doc. ill bite explain to me the natural incentive that makes socialism or any collectivism naturally improve things?deathboy
- I get china thinks the same with reeducation camps.or censoring of info. This does create a better world from the reference of the person who controls.deathboy
- Might you be projecting your values of a world controlled by you onto a ruling party and hoping they have the same values?deathboy
- read marxdocpoz
- doc i do think you have been mislead. have you ever wondered if what you know is absolutely wrong. and if the case are you ok with it? Or will you fight it?deathboy
- let me try to interpret:docpoz
- is it part of your identity or could you easily accept evidence and switch opinion? Reminds me of diogenes quote about easily turningdeathboy
- marx is absurd. he only sells to emotion not reason.deathboy
- if you want reason truly read road to serdom. A great piece about collectivism in any form stalin or marxism and its natural downfalldeathboy
- But doc do tell me do u value security or freedom?deathboy
- brbdocpoz
- i have company. brb brbdocpoz
- k im backdocpoz
- do i value security? sure. on what level? do I want to be convicted of a crime I haven't committed yet? surely not.docpoz
- do I value freedom? that is the most important thing. how free is your society? how many false incarcerations? how many erroneous lives taken? anywhoodocpoz
- im new to marx. i like what ive seen. ideolistic? definetely. visionary? surely. well intentioned? yes...docpoz
- *idealisticdocpoz
- but in my interpretation of what has happened with socialism... is that it was weaponized and abused and given a negative stigma...docpoz
- and before then it was a philosophy where a social structure can be level in a way where the welfare state has a standard that is much above that of povertydocpoz
- and I believe this philosophy insinuated that it would be a natural extension of capitalism or would be a remedy to a broken capitalist systemdocpoz
- I know some leftists think capitalism is broken already and want a system that works and will reach into levels of socialism as solution to a problemdocpoz
- i think a healthy welfare state is a sign of prosperity so it is a good thing to have in a societydocpoz
- but you know who isnt for a prosperous utopia where everything you need is given to you and you just go out there and live your best life hahadocpoz
- and you could view a world with little stress. a healthy world with less environmental problems and healthy species of animals? healthy corals?docpoz
- Who has the balls to implement a carbon footprint tax? Oh man, companies would balk. Humanity is going in the right direction, everything is almost mapped outdocpoz
- for us...docpoz
- we are merging into cyborgs and have created a magical electrical element called digital 1s and 0s. can we merge with technology? apparently.docpoz
- the problem is that we need i/os implanted into our nervous systems using nanotechnology.docpoz
- direct i/os into the coretex...docpoz
- ai is about to explode. how will that affect things? how will it affect marx' theory?docpoz
- we need to ensure the planet's safety. that goal should be in every social structuredocpoz
- when business interests block our safety, will we smoke the big industry cigarette to cancer?docpoz
- is classism a sickness. probablydocpoz
- the french revolution.docpoz
- anyways corporations will probably privatize welfare anyways if not alreadydocpoz
- furthermore most innovation is developed by the military complex anyways so the corporations are being directly influenced by military.docpoz
- really, the system is just a system. no labels. just design it efficiently.docpoz
- our system has a layer of services provided by our taxes and lets make that as efficient as possible for the most peopledocpoz
- lets have freedoms of peace throughout the planetdocpoz
- or the areas working well enough for it to happendocpoz
- some places are hopeless jk hadocpoz
- im probably delving too much in philosophy so as to the issues facing us: capitalist lobbyists affecting policy, corporations controlling democracy either...docpoz
- ...directly or through mindshare.docpoz
- self-destruction through profit by way of irresponsible environmental policiesdocpoz
- also: the effect of the one percent situationdocpoz
- the need to cure the planet of different industrial illnesses, like coral reef bleaching and air pollutiondocpoz
- making sure the health care situation is solid and that affordable housing is availabledocpoz
- its a lot of shit. if you ever live in the big city you can see how welfare helps lives. it would be a war zone without these programs.docpoz
- most of these programs can be labeled as socialist programs. just like: police, fire, hospitals... etc.fire dept sends you a bill nowadays. go figure.docpoz
- ok this joint is done. im done. im not a politician man. im just into philosophy, i dabble in sociologydocpoz
- and Ive been listening to Musk.docpoz
- curb emissions.. curb carbon footprints.docpoz
- wow.... u seem to want really care and want better, but are absolutely wrong in your approach.you think marx or stalin or even hitler wanted to create a worsedeathboy
- world. they all ahd good intentions. even Xi in china right now. But look at western china and its polcie state for the most blatant result of such central plandeathboy
- by some small group of individuals who think they know best. hell trumps trade war thinking he knows best is a perfect example of the faults in marxism or anydeathboy
- collectivism culture. this is where capitalism differs. But you do have to understand and be cool with the idea some people will be fodder, out of their owndeathboy
- laziness or lack of ability. that is simply LIFE. a hard truth that we can throw money at in so many types of social welfare programs or anti homeless rulesdeathboy
- some ppl lack the abilities needed to survive. i dont feel bad for them. hell why should i? i know ppl who are pissed born with malformities that would be pissedeathboy
- d if i took some sort of pity on them. that is life. a culture that says you should pity or feel for, which is different than empathy, is wrongdeathboy
- but i think certain types are more prone to feelign than reason. again biology. and those types push more marx or socialism or any collectivism like the churchdeathboy
- a mixture of fear and having no natural buffer of feelings. Reason is the buffer necessary to control feelings and not be an animaldeathboy
- Also welfare enslaves more than it helps. You can watch some milton friedman free to choose series on the topic. The idea is it sets a benchmarkdeathboy
- if it try and dont succeed or just barely succeed over X i get no help. so why should I even try at all if i barely go past X when X is given to me.deathboy
- my mom made the majority of my clothes living in a single wide in the middle of nowhere nv. ive seen poor and been poor and never did my family use welfaredeathboy
- i saw ppl who did too and its effects. I learned a lot about watching my folks with credit and switching cards 0 apr balances. hell a 500 dollar xmas was paiddeathboy
- all year on layaway. Is funny the majority of ppl who talk of the poor the loudest have never beendeathboy
- Look I like philosophy a lot. You should read the road to serfdom. It pissed many ppl off in its day and might piss you off too being the emotional control typedeathboy
- But it is rationally almost spot on about the nature of humans and control regarding political and economic systems. And a bonus in the language studydeathboy
- and the meaning of words. I always find it funny liberalism meant something so different from today than it did in the past.deathboy
- always fascinated by humans and the ability to shape reality, truth and meanings in abstract variable of language and how easy to change reality with themdeathboy
- also "i think a healthy welfare state is a sign of prosperity so it is a good thing to have in a society" a very weird thing to think. Not sure what reason onedeathboy
- think that is a good thing. Man relying on the handouts of those elected who continuously offer more for votes, which they take from the non welfare ppldeathboy
- its a death spiral. unless you actually beleive men on welfare want no more, are no more greedy than a person passively investing in a 401k or gambling.deathboy
- they will always be happy and contempt with their welfare state. no polician will need an edge or offer for votes, and those with will continue unabated to provdeathboy
- ide such a welfare state. The problem is marxists think of the large part of humanity as ants or pawns. marx, stalin, mussolini, maduro, xi, mao, etc.deathboy
- never for once took the perspective of how they would behave at the bottom rung of the ladder. ever question the human spirit and wether they'd except theirdeathboy
- place. because if ppl dont except and fall in line it creates chaos for the rulers and planners. really its all so simple. but im a thinker vs feelerdeathboy
- Nothing you have said id rational. I think humans should have a basic right to dignified essentials. Period. In a world wherre the one percent is raping...docpoz
- Humanity , those essentials should be plentiful.your whole perspective is driven by guiltdocpoz
- Get over your fear of welfaredocpoz
- Your the type of person that pays taxes up the ass and then would rather live on the street than get public assistance. Fine.docpoz
- you think humans should essentials ... is that reason or emotion. If reason you need to back it with a rational basis.deathboy
- i dont have a fear of welfare. but i hate to see peopel enslaved by it. and it has a purpose. give enough so people dont get hungry and try to rob medeathboy
- i prefer to let the charity and those who get off on it help others than forcing people to do it though.deathboy
- and no i minimize my taxes. being self employed you really learn about the tax burden more than a wage slave.deathboy
- im the type that wont live on the street. but many will with welfare and be happy to do it over actually workingdeathboy
- and please if I failed to explain any rationale let me know. a lot i think is common sense but i might be assuming too much. perhaps too much hope obama styledeathboy
- so i too can also be quite lazy in explanationdeathboy
- and the rationale of humans must have essentials in the type of FDR second bill of rights is decimated by reason. there is a resason essentials isnt in currentdeathboy
- bill of right or is healthcare and such. The simple argument against things is there is nor right of an individual derived on the labors of anotherdeathboy
- this phislophical view point is why slavery is incorrect even though in the past they labeled slaves as property and not beings.deathboy
- if one has a right to these essentials they must be provided by another. this other must have no say. this makes them a modern day slave. this is where marxismdeathboy
- falls part. it tries to extol self sacrifice and make people think that its natural making the modern day slavery voluntary agaisnt reason other might not wantdeathboy
- all a con to get someone to sit on a throne why others fight about selfliessness. a poor man con job of a idea with 0 value to get rich ondeathboy
- you definitely are a emotion type of person. i doubt any of this will do anything except make u feel more passionately about your beliefsdeathboy
- but there is the saying about a tiger and their stripes. and my saying it is how it is becaue it cant be anything but what it isdeathboy
- sorrry, what? anyways. ok whateverdocpoz
- just check your premise. if you like reason and philosophy. simply start by questions your idea of "rights", or compare FDR rights vs bill of rightsdeathboy
- you will see the basis of most todays termed "liberal" arguments start on a broken premise. And they absolutely try to obfuscate what capitalism is.deathboy
- which is a means of free people to trade value amongst others voluntarily. Of all the boogiemen of capitalism being monopoly their really has only been onedeathboy
- and that's government. this is why gov is suppose to be very limited and have small influence on trade. why stuff like trumps tariffs are far from it.deathboy
- hell facism is derived from a description of italy wwII. it was collectivist control focused on business. ppl think its far different from socialism or communisdeathboy
- but theyre all primarily the same. all on the same side against individualism. and they have all failed historically and they all have the same excusedeathboy
- and say not far enough one way or in one sector and define the failure with a new ism and try a new power hungry hopeful copies the plan and more than likelydeathboy
- believes they will have a different outcome this time. which is really the definition of insanity. Its tough when the new religious pulpit is universitiesdeathboy
- the academics and false experts (which everyone in advertising knows selling expertise is a branding con job) as new priests. Ppl are starting to think thedeathboy
- idea of science is infallible without knowing anything about it. That's a problem. Considering there are so many "experts" in their own fields in disagreementdeathboy
- there is no problem with capitalism. think of socialism as an evolution instead of a competitor. let me ask you...what tax bracket are you in?docpoz
- and so many different measures. or paid for studies and stats. I think id rather people believe blindly in god than a research paper with viral sharing.deathboy
- or actually not even the research paper but the 1-2 line conclusion and headline of said paper disregarding all methods of research.deathboy
- but than again. advertising has trained people to read headline quick body and decide. advertising a cornerstone of capitalism but our public schooling faileddeathboy
- to teach kids to and adults to recognize bullshit, because they where being conditioned like dewey wanted to fall in line with anyone speaking the loudestdeathboy
- in the front of the class. dewey always believed smart good men would run things and if you could curb radical free thinking and get masses to followdeathboy
- you'd maintain a good system. but he was blinded by the good intention and never thought good people wouldn't rule, or what motivates those to run for power.deathboy
- in short again capitalism is good and all your knowledge of else is incorrect so check your premisesdeathboy
- capitalism is good. socialism is an evolution of capitalism. without capitalism working well you cannot have functioning, proper socialism.docpoz
- socialism will not work until the conscioussness of the people is ready for it. obviously you and others are not ready for it.docpoz
- its not a competition.docpoz
- what country do you live in?docpoz
- read this: https://www.quora.co…docpoz
- and this: https://www.quora.co…docpoz
- thats a good starting point so you can educate yourself a bit.docpoz
- wow dude. socialism is not evolution. it is tribalism. again basic philosophies of individualism vs collectivism.deathboy
- yes you can have a large welfare state with limited capitalism. The bernie bro countries... but you also have to figure with such a state you have far lessdeathboy
- entrepreneurship, and really need a specific economic demographic to control. there is a reason little development has ever come out of bernies chosen countrysdeathboy
- and such countries rarely ever mention that all progress comes from largely us in the heathcare sector (US)deathboy
- than there is tech there is retail, there is entertainment. what has norways welfare state with capitalism fundamentals really produced except a butter blackdeathboy
- market. all life is a competition. i can say im quite educated without a single degree in rational thinking.deathboy
- explain this "socialism will not work until the conscioussness of the people is ready for it." what does that mean?deathboy
- how is that different than hitlers new world order battling a world who wont except the conciousness of his will? You do know he ran on a socialist platformdeathboy
- you see you help prove the my statement that all collectivist say its not far enough, not enough believers. no reason. all faithdeathboy
- no different than you religious collectivists. liberals and the religious are no different except in their idea of god. one wants a tangible source the other okdeathboy
- on faith. i think those wanting the tangible miss the point and purpose of religion all together. its to feel good even if it means imagining the unreal.deathboy
- the liberals who believe in an omnipotent state that stands for the greater good. are far more blind that many religious folks believing dogma. reagan quotedeathboy
- and please use your words and not quora to explain your premise. it is irrational. where do i start? make a case on your own and ill show you where you errordeathboy
- i wont show every error of any comment on quoradeathboy
- oh yea forgot to mention the welfare + capitalism countries end up in stagnation and finally turmoil when the sources of wealth disappear. norways oil moneydeathboy
- venezuala would be absolutely disrupted if oil demands drops off. say gov, not free markets force EVs. Norway welfare state would become fuckeddeathboy
- it would crumble. so is that just a wrong model? was venezuela a wrong model? what is the right model leninism look like? another point to prove your casedeathboy
- I think that when it comes to industrial progress, you make a good point and one that i dont have research on.docpoz
- "Marx was inspired by Darwin and believed that history evolves like biological species. As a consequence of that, he considered that his theory is scientific andocpoz
- ... amoral. The proletariat should make the revolution and create Communism not because they have the moral right to do so (actually, Marx praised Capitalism asdocpoz
- a far better system than Feudalism, and Communism as a normal evolution from Capitalism), but because the objective laws of a scientific economic history dictadocpoz
- this outcome. From his perspective, capitalist owners are not necessary bad people, the system is broken.docpoz
- If a capitalist tried to provide better conditions for the workers, he would be eliminated by the competition. However, he considered that the Communist systemdocpoz
- is far more efficient than the Capitalist one because it was the result of evolution. The consequence of the clash is inevitable because history is not decideddocpoz
- by individuals or states, but by scientific objective laws (in that sense, Marx was a predecessor of today’s scientism, a current of thinkers that believes blindocpoz
- blindly in the infinite power of science to explain and understand everything).docpoz
- Marx referred to the “modern” democratic state as the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and thus his notion of a “dictatorship” of the proletariat was one in whicdocpoz
- you had a democratic state that acted in the interests of the workers rather than in the interests of business.docpoz
- Anyways, Marx had an ideal that I believe should be worked to as much as feasibly possible. Not in an aggressive way, but in a way thats sensible and fits w/...docpoz
- the status quo. Whats the point of the upper class hogging all of the wealth anyways? If there is excess, there should be some investment in the peopledocpoz
- Lenin failed. Forget Lenin. Lenin weaponized socialism and he failed.docpoz
- Marx' core values are sensible and should continue to be studied.docpoz
- Why does socialism work in some places and not in others? Theres a delicate balance that needs to be studied. China. Norway. Venezuela. Cuba. USSR....docpoz
- All must be studied.docpoz
- This 1 percent situation is pissing people off and the minimum wage didnt budge for awhile. The people are getting weary.docpoz
- New York would be a war zone if it wasnt for welfare. 70,000 homeless in NYC!!!docpoz
- The middle class was feeling the crunch under the last recession. Lets see what happens. French revolution part 2 seemed plausible under Obama hahadocpoz
- A strong middle class and is still the key to successdocpoz
- or at least a great barometerdocpoz
- *********
ok, your turn.docpoz - alright lets see how many comments a qbn post can take. alot of what marx says is wrong.deathboy
- starting with the evolution of capitalism. capitalism is an evolution of any collectivist undertaking separating individuals from the collectivedeathboy
- feudalism, tribalism is all still a form of collectivism and their is no scientific or objective laws of economic history.deathboy
- marx has a social theory based on the idea of a ruling class and everyone else acting in line like ants. Ants are a species that would work for marxdeathboy
- no ant is an individual and they all work for the whole. however humans are not ants despite how much people who desire rule to believe.deathboy
- perhaps if humans were like ants marx thesis would have any merit. but since theyre not his theory unravels.deathboy
- as far as trying to elevate workers. workers exist because someone created a job for them or a need. chicken or egg. if the job didnt exist neither would thedeathboy
- worker. this tells you workers are secondary and at the mercy of a market creator. they do not create anything. but what do they do?deathboy
- they are a important market signal, or even herd signal in a free environment not ruled by a king or slave maker telling them what to do.deathboy
- through wage exceptance and participation they show what works most beneficially for everyone. for the most part a lot of idiots buy apple and those products ardeathboy
- e shit, but i never said markets cant be wrong or go through correction periods. As far as any idea of democracy working for workers or populacedeathboy
- the mob is the mother of all tyrants. why us is a republic and separate from the idea of democracy and should remain small because of democracydeathboy
- the scariest thing is democratic rule or mob rule. You want objective laws. Not FDR bill of rights bullshit but rationale rule.deathboy
- because democratic rule results in 51% taking from the 49% ruthlessly and with pride. This is why all collectivist systems end in chaos and tyrannydeathboy
- As far as middleclass goes you are right it needs to be strong, but what you believe would help it would hurt it. again read hayek. a perfect example is govdeathboy
- recent role ... recent being more post great depression and wwII with the central banking. albeit we got a reserve currency and a ton of manipulation to help usdeathboy
- it displays a large central planning ethic of forcing growth. The biggest cause of wealth disparity has not been from a free market but the gov, rules,deathboy
- regulations and monetary policy. things marx would have thought he could have controlled. its human hubris to think you can control it. why hayek is rightdeathboy
- admitting central planning ignorance as socrates did on knowledge. understanding the human desire to try and controldeathboy
- think of economics and hayek like the buddha. similar thinking while islam and christianity are more like socialism. replacing a god with a king or boarddeathboy
- personally i think the best thing trump ever did was get powell in the fed. despite all the peopel upset their asset prices will go down a higher interest ratedeathboy
- will help raise people to middleclass again. as interest rates went down and dollar crushed asset prices rose, homes, stocks etc. this helped push a wider gapdeathboy
- diminish savings from individuals with no buffer to risk and bet, while padding the bottom lines of the rich and wealthy. not to mention if u ever look at thedeathboy
- the rise of stocks and see the increase around 1982 with the accidental invention of passive investing in 401kdeathboy
- where you put up 100% percent capital and 100% risk and see 30% profit after 50yrs or so, while managers cash out instantly and so do banksdeathboy
- this is central planned monetary policy that has created such wealth gaps. this is where govs should have no role. the majority of quips you have are gov madedeathboy
- and the idea individuals are not made of self greed just look again at how many participate in 401ks. just trying to get a easy buck as told.deathboy
- if you ask me the problem goes back to education. not higher edu or college but basic. the way we are taught to think and react to the world and understanddeathboy
- our methods of education are designed by the socialist leader types you'd adore. I for one would get rid of grading and arbitrary benchmarksdeathboy
- no longer let people think they have no need to think for themselves. Mostly go private with edu and mae parents more involved than think of the sytem as daycardeathboy
- and maybe also increase the burden and think twice about the real toughness of children and who nows without social programs maybe cut down on popdeathboy
- ulation to better the human impact of climate change. You have canada that pays you for every kid and chian that use to ban them. hopefully through market forcedeathboy
- s and real education you need neither.deathboy
- Again you have the intention of wanting better but your approach is wrong. Not the first nor the last to take it, but it is.You think I want something differentdeathboy
- we want the same. our approaches are different. however whenever your approach wins ppl suffer, and whenever my approach wins ppl benefitdeathboy
- how has hong kong done by itself? south korea vs north korea, chile vs brazil, us vs world. a reason people want to immigrate here instead of norwaydeathboy
- at least humor the idea everythign you know is wrong and ask yourself if you are ok with it? if not that could be the problem. alot of ppl dont like to be wrongdeathboy
- ××××docpoz
- ××××docpoz
- So do you think marx theory ccouldbe applied to linited sectors like education?
I can understand your explanation and I really will not try to argue against itdocpoz - Where do you draw the line between noncommercial socialism like libraries and private institutions?docpoz
- Where do you draw the line between noncommercial socialism like libraries and private institutions?docpoz
- xxxxxdeathboy
- xxxxxdeathboy
- I don't think his methods would be good anywhere for individuals. any method of control or force for some leaders end goal or greater good is bound to faildeathboy
- men are fallible and they have limited knowledge and ability to accurately gauge what is needed and when to have any real sense of controldeathboy
- probably worth noting too on the education front here edu used to not be so pricey and was affordable. there are a few things that made it blow updeathboy
- first one is gov backed loans. loans that can't be defaulted on and guaranteed by taxpayers. this is a huge win for banks guaranteed moneydeathboy
- second a culture (i suspect PR from banks) that going to college is a must and a great ideal. first loans guaranteed only sciences and engineeringdeathboy
- but than the gov rules changed and colleges could offer degrees in anything and classes and idea strengthened you have to go no matter whatdeathboy
- most degrees and classes in higher edu are a joke, and colleges also packaged them into plans like cable companies for degrees. college is after all a productdeathboy
- guaranteed money on colleges and competition and losing sight of real "value" makes them spend crazy chasing "prestige" building and having the latest.deathboy
- a behavior not unlike to humans that just have money given to them without any sense of earning it. no desire even to control costs jsut knowing in this culturedeathboy
- they don't have too. i think the best thing possible for higher edu and general is to gut dept of edu, and stop guaranteeing loansdeathboy
- bring a sense of responsibility back to individuals and institutions. also gut a lot of licensing and minimum wage laws with internsdeathboy
- for many many fields the best education comes from learning on the job. remember i couldnt get a job in this field fro the longest time or even talk to someonedeathboy
- I didn't have a degree. had work, but no degree. that culture also needs to change in that people look at that as some sort of "authentication". its just andeathboy
- expensive piece of paper, however its a bit of nice social engineering. like a frat. 2 groups of people ones in lots of debt who paid their dues, and those whodeathboy
- didn't. it creates a sort of bias. and they need to believe it sets them above. you can walk into a class for free, but you wont get a piece of paper statingdeathboy
- you did. its kind of a bad joke. also they're becoming quite toxic now with the people who never leave and teach. its less about knowledge and more about culturdeathboy
- e, the meetings my buddy has as a designer over there weekly about PC stuff is insane. just there to build website and 4 hour long cry sessions and the wastedeathboy
- and glut. they throw out applications of white sounding names, they higher people who are not very good and just shrug and say well probably the best we can findeathboy
- d, at a good amount of money and benefits, and the projects they work on are never ending. 2.5 years and not one real project completed. this is what happensdeathboy
- when guaranteed others money. healthcare same problems from too much insurance, which became a culture thing after wage freezes in wwII. bad policy with gooddeathboy
- intentions set forth, no one admitting the errors and always doubling down because fixing it is political suicide.deathboy
- as far as collectivist ideology goes i think it works best in small groups of volunteers. ppl with real similar interests and same desires. charities churches,deathboy
- clean up programs, etc.. as far as public things like libraries and common interests I think there is room for those. if you have a gov not taxing too much anddeathboy
- having a surplus of funds you could try to democratically ask the people what they would like with the funds, a park here, or a fire dept there, or librarydeathboy
- but its slippery slope and people have to keep their politicians in check. because its easy for a mayor to overspend or accept bids on projects for personaldeathboy
- gain and prestige. most people are not principled enough to be in those positions. remember even marge on simpsons floundered the powerdeathboy
- power does corrupt. and its why you should have limited gov, less federal regulations and let each state compete and find what their citizens desire.deathboy
- I would never live in NY or CA, those places are ran like the colleges right now with never ending spending and debt. also hate how they try to get fed rulesdeathboy
- that benefit only them and their constituents. take minimum wage for example. that would destroy many small towns and midwest places. or you'd simple forcedeathboy
- people into working illegally and make ppl scared of each other with reporting like you see in some dystopian moviedeathboy
- at the end of the day the problem I think is finding good public officials. The george washingtons types that didn't even want the job.deathboy
- on the 13&god track walk there is a interview track " i believe angrily that no man should be a boss if they want too, he abuses authority, i don't want to be adeathboy
- boss, i am the boss..." i don't know what its sampled from. I don't have a solution for better candidates, there might not be, so i preferdeathboy
- policy that gives them very strict and limited power. Seeing them as servants once again. Because right now all they do is bribe us with our money for votesdeathboy
- selling liberties and special interests, which they should never have the power to sell. but tocqueville called it "The American Republic will endure until thedeathboy
- day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." and "Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavdeathboy
- ery than unequal in freedom."deathboy
- ***
did you seriously bring up marge simpson?
hadocpoz - Lately I've been really thinking that its all entrophy and thermodynamics of systems. Our freedom and system will eventually fail as all societies ever have asdeathboy
- seasons change. and i should careless about it all. like climate change its only folly and hubris to think you can stop it or change it. to battle entrophy takedeathboy
- a lot of energy and in the sense of time a impossibility.deathboy
- a good read you might like is island by aldous huxley. a fictional novel of a ideal collectivist society and its inner workings and downfall be free radicalsdeathboy
- its probably the best display of a society I imagine you are imagining i have ever seen. but they need like minds, same interests.deathboy
- why tech is going double down on control and social engineering. "One of the principal lessons of our tragic century, which has seen so many millions of innocendeathboy
- ent lives sacrificed in schemes to improve the lot of humanity, is—beware intellectuals. Not merely should they be kept away from the levers of power,deathboy
- they should also be objects of particular suspicion when they seek to offer collective advice."deathboy
- I could go on for days on these topics because they are all interesting, but one has to make some money lest i become a liberal and ask for guaranteed incomedeathboy
- +++
you mean a leftist.docpoz - so are you for privatized prison systems? are you for privatized health care? thoughts on canada?docpoz
- *********
*********docpoz - +++docpoz
- edit: private / commercial over privatizeddocpoz
- +++docpoz
- im not against privatized prisons. but i do questions the laws that make people criminals. a lot of drug stuff I see no wrong doing. And as all private co. dodeathboy
- they lobby for special privileges or rights and I would be very skeptical of the motives. wether it is bottom line or of a real service.deathboy
- as far as healthcare goes it should be very private. and the idea and culture of insurance needs to go away. as my dentist just said when commenting on yea imdeathboy
- one of the embarassing feeling uninsured. Saying yea but you pay less. Insurance as a middleman only job is too make not having them an expense you are too scardeathboy
- ed or capable to afford. insurance goal is to drive prices higher from an individual perspective but payable on the collective scale.deathboy
- never has insurance in all of history been a nice thing. always a gamble from parties looking to hedge their bets the bestdeathboy
- I think the majority of do not need insurance except dertrimental insurance. the cancer stuff. again if you look at heathcare costs you will see they have beendeathboy
- driven largely because of gov policy and the market demographics policy caters too. the end of life stuff. or .0001% better procedures that by a little timedeathboy
- at exponential costs, because individuals are removed from valuing them and pushed upon a unknowledgable collective.deathboy
- would any family member suggest to their family they liquidate all their assets for a risky procedure that might by months to a couple years?deathboy
- Id say no. But if they don;t have to ask their family and their direct values are removed from the equation you can see how they might think it should happendeathboy
- also in the worst of the worst situations with sob stories of someone with no means and all the chance being neglected do to money is a mythdeathboy
- or largely a myth. cant say it hasn't happened, but a myth of empathetic fear. docs back in the day largely worked with out pay. any one hear of doctors turningdeathboy
- people away from lack of payment before insurance in the early 1900s before insurance got its product pushed by wage controls.deathboy
- it didn't happen the same way doctors in poor countries still work. Simply because many people who aspire to be doctors get paid in a different valuedeathboy
- than money. Pride, self-satisfaction, etc. But culturally we have changed market. Students who learn to be better vs paying to get paid later.deathboy
- the AMA wants to over license and keep the doctor pool limited through intense training and costs. after all a union and there goal is to keep wages up fordeathboy
- their own. many of our doctors get most of the education outside US, and do finishing classes here for licensing all because theyre chasing the moneydeathboy
- and its fine to chase money as value. in doing so they also see a lot more than domestic people see goign straight to our institutions and probably betterdeathboy
- for it. but i wonder if the ama and licensing restrictions were less if there would be more practitioners to help lower costs.deathboy
- quality even with regulation is always speculative. i dont know if licensing means as much especially considering todays connectivity of peoplr and social mediadeathboy
- the idea of licensing was when communication was a lot harder. you pay a approve board to say yay or nay, and people believe the board. but now you can readdeathboy
- tons of reviews and make own judgements. i wouldnt go to a surgeon that has a high failure rate on social media. however i cant even accurately make a decisiondeathboy
- when hospitals collectively collect individuals. and kind of spread the information as a whole.deathboy
- as far as private insurance goes check these guys out https://surgerycente…deathboy
- even offering financing now but you can see their pricing and look at equivalent insurance payments and see the huge price reductiondeathboy
- labor vs insurance. or freelancer vs agency pricing. healthcare is only as pricey as it is because of ppl trying to "help"deathboy
- ++++
ok. thats an interesting point, yes. there are layers to the way these industries are integrated. wish i could help there. perhaps an economistdocpoz - ha economists. Like climate scientists with fewer variables trying to decipher markets. Some get lucky, most don't. Fundamentals are key in long run. TIming fordeathboy
- short run. However economists who study market philosophy like hayek/mises are worth a damn, and are very socratic. And keynes/krugman who are more douchy platodeathboy
- types who know enough to deceive themselves in their conclusionsdeathboy
- and thanks for not being an insulting asshat. really do appreciate adult like behavior in conversation of differing opinions.deathboy
- too many ppl get corrupted by this sense of power of freedom offered by anonymity and just wreck it. some probably best to be controlled by societal guiltdeathboy
- and other machinations of control created and decided upon without real freedom of ideas.deathboy
- ++
a dude who knew a dude told me this story about an economist that had the answer...the perfect economical model. he was eventually silenceddocpoz - i went on vacation. the idea of a perfect economical is no different than the idea of a philosopher stone. there is nonedeathboy
- the idea of a market is more chaos theory. it cannot be controlled. everyone who thinks it has been proven wrong.deathboy
- too many variables. yes if we could create a population who was unified like a stupid ant we could control economy more to certain endsdeathboy
- but we are not. and all guises of all leaders with the approach are to increase their own well being. the idea a single person will elevate the tribedeathboy
- of the world is nonsense. they have limited amount of emotional connectionsdeathboy
- i'd look up dunbar's number research for your own opinion. i dont take it as a correct model but a realistic and objective modeldeathboy
- 150 or 500 or 1000 is still a limited amount of true connections before we pair and stereotype and generalize in order to make decisions. another call for smalldeathboy
- gov. and why its important.deathboy
- yeah it was his "friend" ha. probably an urban legenddocpoz
- well with all respect doc ill likely not visit this again. i know there are follow threads and such but dont participate. just want to say probably notdeathboy
- watching it. but was fun. and thanksdeathboy
