Scottish independence
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- detritus0
I'd suggest it would be important to know whether or not Sir Ian Wood intends to vote / spoil his vote before assuming everything he states is without impartiality.
It's enough to know the above, rather than which side he prefers.
- ‘I'd suggest’, lol, like i'm fucking anything other than a midge's fart.detritus
- kingkong0
SNP leader Alex Salmond has admitted he has never been entirely sure what he means when he says ‘independence’.
Scotland’s first minister revealed he has always thought of independence as a ‘play within a play... within a dream’.
He said: “Well, it’s a concept, it’s an idea, it’s a thing.
“In my mind I see it as a tree in the shape of Scotland. Does that make sense?”
Salmond said the idea of independence involving things like a currency and a central bank, was ‘very left brain’, adding: “How would you even do that?”
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.c…
He said: “I think once independence is here I’ll have a much better idea of what it is.
“Any other questions?”
Good luck my Scottish Brethren!
- yurimon0
Not Freedom if you still pay taxes on labor... Scotland fought for what became common law birth rights in its past history. I dont know how real this independence is.
- I'm not sure you know what you're on about.detritus
- Real freedom... what scots fought for. to avoid English tax system and oppression from lordshipyurimon
- I think you'll find that English tax pays into a lot of their economy. Considering the population difference.sem
- he's talking about braveheartzarkonite
- yurimon0
This how its done merica n scotland.
- kingkong0
The thing that gets me is this illusion being painted that Scotland is going to become some sort of socialist paradise, with free education, free health care, lower taxes and house prices etc...
"all the arguments about people thinking we will have a socialist paradise in Scotland if we just get rid of all those Tory MPs, but I think they will find themselves sadly disillusioned when they are just as dependent on foreign investment and all the other stuff that make countries have to make the compromises that they do."
- kingkong0
The other wonderful thing will be:
"Whether Salmond was negotiating with Cameron or Ed Miliband (and it is worth remembering that if Labour wins in the UK in 2015 and then wins in Scotland in 2016, Labour could in fact be negotiating with itself), the process would be likely to be prolonged. The UK government would have every possible incentive to drive a hard bargain with Scotland, as Hammond made clear in the defence context this week, and it would be backed by public opinion."
- sem0
Erm yes please? the red white and black flag is badass!
- sem0
"London and its city are a quasi-city state that at once acts as an all-consuming cancer, sucking away at the lifeblood of the rest of the country... as well as, perversely, resulting in a hugely inordinate share of the entire country's income"
Here is that thing or Northern folk ignoring facts again. Population = Priority. But feel free to just keep putting your opinion based points out there.
For our American friends, this is like Detroit moaning that NYC gets more money. Maybe because it generates more?
- Funny, I thought I was putting across both sides of the coin?detritus
- And, by the way, that inordinate share comes from ‘The 1%’ not the mass of over-population in London.detritus
- money from nothing= printing pressesyurimon
- Without Oligarchs and rich twats around the world investing in London, England has zip...god knows about Scotlandbabaganush
- detritus0
Not going to happen. You'll be stuck with those miserable curs for another generation at least, hhahahahahaa
- rosko_picachu0
That's a good question. It comes down to how Scotland votes at the next election, the one after that and the one after that. Anyone living here has a good idea of how that's likely to pan out. You'll probably find the highest number of votes for the Green Party than anywhere else in the UK. SNP is just gonna grow and grow, with a new leader pushing for the new powers that were promised. Should those not be pushed through, it might create a huge feeling between the No voters that they made a huge mistake, thus fueling a push for another referendum, which is inevitable, just a matter of time. Not likely to happen soon, but within the next 10-30 years their probably is going to be another one.
Pre-referndum: the oil is running out by 2040,
Post-referndum: it is now lasting until 2100.Pre-referendum: No fracking
Post-Referendum: Fracking laws introduced, a land grab. A blatant infringement on home owners land rights.Everyone working in the public sector fearing for their jobs because they were sent letters from the government, eventually losing their jobs in line with the next line of austerity cuts anyway.
It went as far as a 9 year old kid on my street saying, if he was old enough to vote he'd vote no, because otherwise he'd have to pay to go to school, i.e. the entire school system would be privatized in an independent Scotland.
I explained to him that was nonsense and straight away he'd vote Yes. That's how finely balanced it was.
So it gives you an idea of two things, one the fear and just how inaccurate it was, but how effective it was in confusing people. There's a kid at 9 years old, been lied to by the government, via his mum.
Other things like the panic that ensued when the polls turned. Vows were made, Gordon Brown comes up the road like a tornado potentially with a hidden agenda. Something to hide. Wouldn't be hard to find dirt on Gordon Brown.
A mass campaign to encourage people to be undecided and to quote that campaign, "If you don't know, vote no." Essentially undermining the electorates right to vote. Why wouldn't they want them to vote? Dark Propaganda and Playback went a long way to ensuring people were undecided by playing on their worst fears, when the worst fears were the fears of those in England.
What happened was, we had the Commonwealth Games. This led to a lot of the English media setting up in Scotland and having that in place for the referendum.
If so much is at stake for England, it becomes win at all costs, send a message out via the media and repeat it. Assess it's effect and send out another one. It's therefore not important what you know, but what you want people to think.
Like SEM's argument that Scotland couldn't survive on it's own, without being subsidized by England. If you take our natural resources out the picture, that would seem true, but it's cold war style counter intelligence, where you pop out a media message and assess it's affect, whether it's 100% accurate or not.
The media machine went like this:
In England: there is hatred shown towards Scotland.In Scotland: Promote the No campaign.
So you get effectively a sort of post production media cycle before the election. Afterwards it pivots 180 degrees and you get the truth, the post production media cycle, where independent journalism actually makes a comeback to bring peace and harmony, but at the same time a complete contradiction because now they are faced with a backlash. They know they've been anti their own people and now can get back to battering westminster with a big stick.
So it just highlights a whole manner of things, thus empowering those who voted Yes to highlight all these things from now on and keep digging the No voters up. THis is what you voted no for, this is what was said, i.e. the propaganda, this is what you got, the truth.
The media machine had to do a job on English public opinion as well as Scottish and Irish opinion. There were also a number of loopholes that effectively meant people who are actually Scottish couldn't vote and people who were English could and that would.
So their were a number of ways to legally rig an election without tampering with the votes.
- lol 9yr old on the street? whut? we have a new shoebox guy.sem
- detritus0
I'm sorry, Why Should a self-enforcing entity such as London dictate to the rest of the motherland? Its existence and enterprise comes at the cost of that across the rest of the country - questioning that outwith base population terms is very much a valid enquiry!
Its population is still less than the rest of the country's put together, so it should very much be brought to heel.
- You do know you have a local council right? you know they are responsible for your town, city etc also.sem
- From a centrally-attributed allotment, sure. But hey, I live in London - I'm part of the problem here...detritus
- Also rather than youtube here is a better source for you http://www.bbc.co.uk…sem
- And I'm just saying that the amount of tax London gets from its huge population is relevant.sem
- And that its contribution is very significant so can't be look at as if its just taking from everywhere else.sem
- This video is from the Office for National Statistics, which sort of trumps the BBC here.detritus
- Sorry you're right I didn't check the source on youtube. More fool me I'll give you that good sir.sem
- rosko_picachu0
The list of cock ups from the government are undeniable. Here's some highlights.
http://www.greenbenchesuk.com/20…
Saying as we have a 670 page document about how we plan to do this, where is David Cameron's plan?
All they have is currency and the mere mention of that now is what has really swung the vote. Dollar, Yen, Euro, Chinese Yuan, then the pound. With no oil to back it up, and the gold sold off for a fraction of it's worth and only three small countries using it, how long will it have any real bargaining power in a global economy?
Wales, Northern Ireland and England gonna take on the likes of Brazil, India, China, US, Germany etc. are they? Good luck with that.
Or do the rules completely turn on 360degrees after a yes vote.
It's a concern for everyone, but if you're daft enough to give us a vote and be so patronizing about it, and don't take it seriously enough this is what can happen.
- GB minus Scotland will still trade far more freely with the people you mentioned than a newly independent minnow that Scotland will bebabaganush
- Scotland will bebabaganush
- Wolfboy0
So now the likes of RBS and Lloyds are saying they'll move to London if it's a Yes vote.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/busine…
How do you Yes voters see this? Good riddance to institutions that were a big part of the recession, it could even make a fresh start easier?
Or a blow with established businesses not showing a high level of confidence in an independent future (certainly in the short to medium term)?
Or something different?
- rosko_picachu0
Fracking contracts....who did he vote for at the last one?
It's political.
"His report actually used figures from the UK Government's own Department of Energy and Climate Change.
DECC had estimated three figures; 12bn - 24bn and an upper figure of 35bn barrels. Yes, the UK Government's own department believes there is still 35bn barrels of oil to be recovered."
This being a report signed off and recognized by the conservative government. Essentially you can easily misguide it by stating the lowest possible figure, which all changes.
Bearing in mind BP have also geographical reports that their is oil on two sites in the west coast.
- sem0
@Wolfboy
That pretty much sums up a lot of what I've seen online.
"In a more just and democratic future when your grandchildren ask you if you supported the great change what are you going to tell them. That you were scared, that you thought a bunch of self serving Etonian scum seemed like a better choice"
That attitude has nothing to do with what would benefit the economy best, rather just pointless ignorant hatred for the UK and their efforts. Anyone who refers to the Government as Etonian scum clearly forms their opinion of all in the house on the actions of a few.
I'm curious if anything, I'd love to see this superhero government they are expecting to fix everything without any significant learning hiccups on the way.
I'm mostly interested in the new ideas this dream Government have on dealing with Glasgow's crime and addiction rates that no one else would have been trying. Apparently they have the cure for poverty and everything will be so much better so I'm all ears and hoping for the Yes vote.
- maybe they may feel that the problems in Glasgow are related to massively unequal society dreamed up in Westminster. maybe. i don't knowlowimpakt
- maybe, i don't know.lowimpakt
- Great points again. 'Yes' voters seem to think Scottish politicians will be saints...babaganush
- Glasgow population = 500k, London = 8m. Quarter of that 8m in poverty, so 2m yet Glasgow has high crime rates?sem
