Scottish independence
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- zarkonite0
I just wanted to revive this thread and point out that the separatist strategy of relying on oil revenue looks like it was going to be a world of pain for Scotland.
Being part of a larger union helps you weather storms like these.
- Agree n disagree, independence is not easy but people have to have an idea of what is gained. you can get around if the economy is diversified enough.yurimon
- microkorg0
"Scottish independence is inevitable now."
I don't believe it is. I still think that the YES/NO numbers will remain the same.
- monoboy0
Both campaigns tried to make the economic case for a Yes or No. Neither managed. Misinformation was rife. Including the BBC.
24 hours after the vote Cameron stood in for of number 10 and said 'English votes for English people'. So much for better together.
Those that live north of the border feel cheated, betrayed and angry. Which is why the SNP took nearly every seat in the election.
Every time a Tory opens his/her mouth it'll get worse. Scottish independence is inevitable now.
- yurimon-1
http://www.express.co.uk/scotlan…
ID card for every child in Scotland
- yurimon-3
Do people even know what being free is?
- shaft0
This was war, only the Scottish failed to notice it. The sort of thing that was decided in this referendum used to be decided on the battlefield.
Of course Westminster and Co. used every trick in the book to scare the shit out of pensioners and mums. This is democracy, it's dirty.
http://www.oldfashionedamericanh…Same rules apply.
- Agree. Of course when Scotland had it's own parliament it would have been like a Disney film and changed the world if politics...babaganush
- Behind every invasion rest politicians full of impossible promises for gullible cannon fodder.sem
- babaganush0
Scotland even has a high proportion of ageing population (your harassed pensioners) so the referendum allowed for 16 plus populace to vote (not the standard 18). This should have seen a spike in fearless 'yes' voting based on common sense and opinion. But of course they were brainwashed by their parents. Your points are actually hilarious, keep them coming.
- babaganush0
@rosko Who are 'English' people?...I think you do picture Patrick McGoohan in Braveheart. My folks are from Scotland and Ireland respectively. They came to England as circumstance of work. Like MANY people living in England. Some if whom have a far greater lineage than some who got to vote in the referendum but in your blinkered divisionism, they are English aren't they? Many we're thinking about remaining 'British' not 'English'.
Most of your points seem to insinuate legalised rigging that is just called 'campaigning'...if you didn't get a referendum you would have cried like a baby, you got one and then the political machine went into overdrive in the manner of the most advanced political techniques in modern countries and it came out no...and you are giving NVQ media spin level nonsense based on a 9 year old that listens to their mother, who in turn should feel ashamed because she makes a decision for her child based on what is best in the foreseeable future based on rational argument. Quite a pointless load of words that does a disservice to an actual admirable campaign by the 'yes' voters.Your clearly not advanced enough for political autonomy because you shouldn't hate the 'players' hate the 'game'. Their was quite a bit if utopian speak that seemed to believe politics in Scotland would rewrite centuries if turmoil and deceit...which is just offensively naive
- Babeganush, I salute you sir. I too am from northern heritage yet i'm being called the shitty southerner lolsem
- Cheers Sem. 'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel' someone said. Where has increased secularism improved the world so farbabaganush
- The world so far?babaganush
- I think there is a big difference between proud as it's and extremist Scots.babaganush
- *Proud Scotsbabaganush
- Exactly, its beyond pride when hate is involved.sem
- Ach, well we'll see what happens. You're naive to believe everything you read in the Daily Mailrosko_picachu
- rosko_picachu0
That's a good question. It comes down to how Scotland votes at the next election, the one after that and the one after that. Anyone living here has a good idea of how that's likely to pan out. You'll probably find the highest number of votes for the Green Party than anywhere else in the UK. SNP is just gonna grow and grow, with a new leader pushing for the new powers that were promised. Should those not be pushed through, it might create a huge feeling between the No voters that they made a huge mistake, thus fueling a push for another referendum, which is inevitable, just a matter of time. Not likely to happen soon, but within the next 10-30 years their probably is going to be another one.
Pre-referndum: the oil is running out by 2040,
Post-referndum: it is now lasting until 2100.Pre-referendum: No fracking
Post-Referendum: Fracking laws introduced, a land grab. A blatant infringement on home owners land rights.Everyone working in the public sector fearing for their jobs because they were sent letters from the government, eventually losing their jobs in line with the next line of austerity cuts anyway.
It went as far as a 9 year old kid on my street saying, if he was old enough to vote he'd vote no, because otherwise he'd have to pay to go to school, i.e. the entire school system would be privatized in an independent Scotland.
I explained to him that was nonsense and straight away he'd vote Yes. That's how finely balanced it was.
So it gives you an idea of two things, one the fear and just how inaccurate it was, but how effective it was in confusing people. There's a kid at 9 years old, been lied to by the government, via his mum.
Other things like the panic that ensued when the polls turned. Vows were made, Gordon Brown comes up the road like a tornado potentially with a hidden agenda. Something to hide. Wouldn't be hard to find dirt on Gordon Brown.
A mass campaign to encourage people to be undecided and to quote that campaign, "If you don't know, vote no." Essentially undermining the electorates right to vote. Why wouldn't they want them to vote? Dark Propaganda and Playback went a long way to ensuring people were undecided by playing on their worst fears, when the worst fears were the fears of those in England.
What happened was, we had the Commonwealth Games. This led to a lot of the English media setting up in Scotland and having that in place for the referendum.
If so much is at stake for England, it becomes win at all costs, send a message out via the media and repeat it. Assess it's effect and send out another one. It's therefore not important what you know, but what you want people to think.
Like SEM's argument that Scotland couldn't survive on it's own, without being subsidized by England. If you take our natural resources out the picture, that would seem true, but it's cold war style counter intelligence, where you pop out a media message and assess it's affect, whether it's 100% accurate or not.
The media machine went like this:
In England: there is hatred shown towards Scotland.In Scotland: Promote the No campaign.
So you get effectively a sort of post production media cycle before the election. Afterwards it pivots 180 degrees and you get the truth, the post production media cycle, where independent journalism actually makes a comeback to bring peace and harmony, but at the same time a complete contradiction because now they are faced with a backlash. They know they've been anti their own people and now can get back to battering westminster with a big stick.
So it just highlights a whole manner of things, thus empowering those who voted Yes to highlight all these things from now on and keep digging the No voters up. THis is what you voted no for, this is what was said, i.e. the propaganda, this is what you got, the truth.
The media machine had to do a job on English public opinion as well as Scottish and Irish opinion. There were also a number of loopholes that effectively meant people who are actually Scottish couldn't vote and people who were English could and that would.
So their were a number of ways to legally rig an election without tampering with the votes.
- lol 9yr old on the street? whut? we have a new shoebox guy.sem
- rosko_picachu0
The truth is the Dark Propaganda and Playback counter intelligence machine rolled into overdrive with every kind of trick you could think of. A bunch of scared up pensioners who were phoned up and told they'd lose their pensions swung the vote.
That's pretty shocking behaviour. Let's go scare some pensioners. This is the mindset of what we've been up against.Church of Scotland got to the pensioners as well. The Orange Order played their part, helped by laws to attempt to introduce anti sectarianism and HMRC almost putting Rangers out of business. Orange lodge teamed up with right wing groups from northern ireland and UKIP.
I'd love to find out how much money it would cost to rig the daily news in such a way, but a lot comes down to tax breaks and London based legalized money laundering systems. Ahem, the license fee, which is often threatened.
All it really highlighted was just how seemingly easy it was to mis-guide the public with lies and intimidation.
It still came down to just 5% and a million people not voting, so when you say all of Scotland, you'd have to also factor in under the age of 55, Yes won and they'll be the future voters, whereas the no voters will die off by the time the next one rolls along.
English people seem to take it personally that their ownership of Scotland has been called into question and it's gonna be called into question in a remarkable way at the next election.
Lib. Dem. Conference had like five people at it. Public opinion for Labour and Conservative votes is only gonna diminish even more.
At the next election you'll see exactly how Scotland would have voted without the lies having such a big impact. People will be free to vote without such an end of the world scenario thrown at them for no reason other than it was an end of the world scenario for England.
That was what was at stake - England, not Scotland. Financial freedom for corporations. Not pensions and that is the one thing that won this election, that and the sectarian divide of one football club brought to it's knees - which probably equates to easily a following of over a million people.
Of course the counter intelligence people know all this fine well.
It's unimaginable all the things that were setup to make the Yes vote fail, but yet it came mighty close and this is just the beginning really.
- hans_glib0
shut it with the north-south argument stupidity. we're all on the same island, lets just agree to differ and get on with it
- bumdrizzle0
sem is clearly an idiot, you are wasting your time detritus.
and I think pitiable and scathing are probably mutually exclusive.
- lol Northerns unite like Voltron to attack the south....while living here.sem
- detritus0
Interesting that it's you that keeps bumping this thread, sem.
And you wonder why Northerners want rid of ever-scathing Southerners.
Note I didn't say 'Scots', just Northerners generally.
- Think you'll find I bumped it about 3 times max. The rest was in reply to other peoples posts.sem
- Nice attitude from a northerner that lives down south. Well done there.sem
- detris is a tardyurimon
- I've lived abroad more than I've lived up North and you'll note I said 'Northerners' Not 'we'.detritus
- Thanks, Yurimon - always good to be insulted by a fruitloop moron who can't even spell. Really hurts, that. Ouch!detritus
- So many feels Detritus, wanna get a pint and hug it out?sem
- detritus0
If you dug deeper, you'd find that Glasgow UNIVERSITY does a lot of research into renewable energies.
Not sure I can even begin to see the logic in conflating a university with a city, but of course, it's much easier to simplify an interpretation in polar terms if it fits your preconceptions, doesn't it?
- Also, oil is mooted as a short-term gap for investment into renewables, which I think was shouted about quite loudly at the time..detritus
- at the time...detritus
- Renewables that are mostly funded by the rest of the UK.sem
- And i think you'll find Oil was mentioned a lot more than renewable energy in the campaign.sem
- I think if you dug deeper, you'll find there was a FUCKLOAD of talk of renewables. *shrug*detritus
- Obviously oil's a loud debate because it's contentious, since nu Labour re-drew the rights lines out in the North sea.detritus
- sem0
http://en.ria.ru/world/20141009/…
"Glasgow University has announced that it will withdraw investments worth £18 million ($29 million) from companies that produce fossil fuels"
""The university recognises the devastating impact that climate change may have on our planet, and the need for the world to reduce its dependence on fossil fuels"
loooool, it was only a month or so they were in Glasgow proud of all the oil they have. This is funny.
- sem0
Glasgow Population: 598,830
75% of said population voted.
YES: 194,779
NO: 169,347Glasgow was one of only 4 of 32 regions to win the YES vote.
The NO votes won by almost 400,000 votes overall, do the math. I think if over 400,000 votes were rigged there would be a lot more proof.
Plus most importantly, the areas with the most oil control didn't just win the NO vote by a little...it was a clear NO victory. Shetlands would have prob wanted their own independence if the YES votes won.
Is it not more likely that the bitter losers are finding any excuse avoid accepting the fact that they do not speak for Scotland as a whole?
- User deleted their "proof" video once the media jumped on it. Prob cos he would have to prove more and can't.sem
- dont you want to be free in your kilt?yurimon
- Surely a find like a ton of votes in the bin would have resulted in more than just a youtuber making a video about it. He would have kept them, put pics online etcsem
- would have kept them, put pics online etc. Instead he made a video that he deleted once people questioned its authenticity.sem
- authenticity. Its like the video claiming the guy was filling out votes. Didn't show WHAT votes or anything.sem
- I can wear a kilt anytime Yuri, we don't need borders to grant me access :)sem
- that was a metaphor sem.
Claim your birth rights. thats what its all about. most free peoples have been conquered on the planet.yurimon - Independence that creates borders on an Island this small don't make sense. Unity and growth together = progress.sem
- The people united just need to come together and change the 1% that are messing things up. It will happen.sem
- More awareness on this http://www.theguardi…sem
- sem0
Newsweek journalists are worst than Daily Mail.
