Ban the Burqa?
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- airey0
if this is freedom then i change my mind. state should rule.
- kgvs720
Looks fine to me.
- drinking coffee must be hell.Amicus
- I remember seeing this video a long time ago and it never said the country where it was filmed, propropropaganda...georgesIII
- ukit0
For the record, I think all this crap is silly - wearing the veil, banning the veil, I'm against all of it. Fuck the fucking veil.
I mean there's absolutely nothing to be gained from wearing a black outfit that covers your entire body, especially when you live in the desert. What is it but yet another piece of bullshit superstition, as ridiculous as Scientologists measuring your thetans or Catholics worshipping an aging Nazi pedophile who carries a staff with a dead guy carved on it.
It's all a load of childish bullshit and the fact that we even have debates over these issues shows that humanity isn't really that far from their primate ancestors. It's a wonder we don't just spend all day flinging poo at each other for all the progress we've made.
- georgesIII0
"When you bring this up, people will say, well, it's Saudi Arabia or Iran's culture to treat people this way, and I'm largely sympathetic to that. But it seems inconsistent to say that they can impose their culture on the society and France can't - regardless of the motivation. "
Guess why I speak french, because they imposed their culture onto mine and nearly erased all traces of it. French imposed their culture on most of Africa.
Now should I see them as shiny knights ready to defends the right of the poor muslim women heck no.
- ukit0
ack...this is turning into another reflexive East vs West argument. Suffice to say Muslims conquered other countries too, and we don't decided who gets what rights based on historical karma.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to put on my special bunny costume that allows me to telepathically communicate with Satan. BRB
- georgesIII0
you're right Ukit,
most of the people don't care about burka o no burka,
they just want other to act and think exactly like themselves,yep, that some freedom you've got there brother.
- Amicus0
If everyone acted and thought like me my life would very much poorer for it.
I don't think too many people actually care about the head scarves and hair coverings – moslem or otherwise. It's the hiding of the face and therefore the identity and emotion of the wearer that is the problem. Think about Phantom of the Opera and how Christine wishes to unmask the Phantom and see his true self.
It's the reduction of individual identity and the ability to communicate that seems to be the main concern with this.
- But he was horribly disfigured,
that is why...
ooooh I see your point,georgesIII
- But he was horribly disfigured,
- airey0
down with the french! no niqab's yet they made this guy a fucking hero!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar…
- ukit0
Miss Iran, 1974
- She's hiding her anguish at not wearing the burqa incredibly well..ukit
- so her choice was not to wear. so what?airey
- if it's all oppressive and not choice why isn't she wearing one?airey
- once again you completely ignore why Iran went for being a democracy to a theocracy,
georgesIII - you keep on ignoring why most of those country less than 50 years ago were all going the democratic way until some other countries that I won't name fuck it up for them,georgesIII
- some other countries that I won't name fuck it up for them, ignoring it won't make it go awaygeorgesIII
- um, airey, this was pre-Islamic Revolution. You don't see this today.ukit
- There is no choice for millions of women (as opposed to the couple thousand in France who want to wear the burqa)ukit
- arrh righto. fair dos.airey
- man, ukit, who put down Moghsadeg, who gave money to the opposition, who got the nation oil business, google itgeorgesIII
- maikel0
this is a fuckall thing (as ukit said)
I cannot walk around naked because here is against the law (here is England).
In a Muslim country probably you need to adhere to their dressing code (am I right? I may not be so... I pretty ignorant in this matter)
If France decides that people can or cannot wear something is equally fair or wrong that ANY other restriction.It is like going to China expecting everybody to be fluent in Spanish... as long time expat I guess you take the culture of the place you chose to live or you get the fuck out of there. No whining, aye?
- -it may not -I AM pretty ignorant...
also I cannot fucking type///maikel - Exactly, at least be fair! What's good for the goose...etcukit
- se we should all measure our civil rights and moral attitudes by china's? fuck.airey
- fuck... you were almost intelligent until that comment airey.... reread it for goodness sake.Amicus
- i refuse.airey
- well the analogy is pointless. and everyone seems to say 'well in this country...'airey
- when we bang on about holding ourselves to higher ideals.airey
- do we actually do that though?airey
- anyone that goes to china expecting everyone to be fluent in spanish is a fucking idiot.airey
- anyone going there expecting a translator service at a money changer may not be an idiot.airey
- I demand the right to look at porn on the internet in China!ukit
- airey, you are missing the point.maikel
- -it may not -I AM pretty ignorant...
- ukit0
airey, another way to look at it would be, if you are concerned with oppressing peoples' freedom, why not focus on the most egregious examples of the problem? i.e., the fact that in much of the Middle East today, women can no longer dress the way they want (some may want the burqa but certainly not all), choose to pursue the career they want, and their rights have even gone backward since the era pictured above.
In that light, it's easy to see how the burqa or the hijab almost becomes a symbol of that oppression in some peoples' eyes. I mean, FFS, Iran is even one of the less restrictive in terms of this stuff and yet you still get this (from Wikipedia, which I don't think is full of made up Western propaganda)
"The Islamic revolution is ideologically committed to inequality for women in inheritance and other areas of the the civil code; and especially committed to segregation of the sexes. Many places, from "schoolrooms to ski slopes to public buses", are strictly segregated. Females caught by revolutionary officials in a mixed-sex situation can be subject to virginity tests.[9]"
"Bad hijab ― exposure of any part of the body other than hands and face — is subject to punishment of up to 70 lashes or 60 days imprisonment.[10][11] In April 2007, the Tehran police, (which is under Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei's supervision), began the most fierce crackdown on what's known as "bad hijab" in more than a decade. In the capital Tehran thousands of Iranian women were cautioned over their poor Islamic dress and several hundred arrested."
"During the Sixth Parliament, some of Iran's strongest advocates of women's rights emerged. Almost all of the 11 female lawmakers of the (at the time) 270-seat Majlis tried to change some of Iran's more conservative laws. However, during the elections for the Seventh Majlis, the all-male Council of Guardians banned the 11 women from running for office, and only conservative females were allowed to run. The Seventh Majlis reversed many of the laws passed by the reformist Sixth Majlis."
"During the administration of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's administration, the use of Siqeh, or temporary marriages (that can last from 30 minutes to a lifetime), became heavily used,[citation needed] especially in response to the financial demands of prenuptial agreements. The temporary marriages, enacted by fatwa in 1983 under Khomeini, are heavily criticized as a form of legalized prostitution."
- totally agree. but i ask again, are we measuring our acceptance by these countries?airey
- does forcing them unoppress (sic) them as some people think or oppress them more?airey
- Why not measure our outrage by the severity of the crime?ukit
- is all i'm asking.airey
- not sure i follow?airey
- i don't live in the middle east. i live here. and i'd like here to stand to higher individual values.airey
- haha, but you don't live in France do you? I used to, so I arguably have a greater say than you.ukit
- maybe but the bigger players in the globe all follow each others lead in this kind of thing.airey
- Maybe in Europe. Here in the U.S. it's a non issue because we don't have many Muslims.ukit
- we have a lot here and i'd like to think we could try to be accepting rather than small minded.airey
- georgesIII0
- "égalité"ukit
- How about some equality for women too?ukit
- you forgot, the first one, liberté, and third one fraternité, then the last and erased ou la mort.georgesIII
- Freedom to be forced to do something by your husband...is freedom how exactly?ukit
- Freedom for every husband to force his woman to wear burqasdrgz
- ukit0
- you get your history from cartoons now,
georgesIII - a cartoon based on an Iranian woman's real life experience, why not?ukit
- you did watch the movie right?
maybe you should watch it again and learn why the revolution happend.georgesIII - It's a good film though, right?ukit
- you get your history from cartoons now,
- georgesIII0
Sérieusement,
est ce qu'il y a d'autre français qui pourrait nous donner leur avis sur se sujet,
je trouve ça vraiment drôle, que les seuls personnes a parler ici on l'air d'avoir une très petite connaissance de l'histoire française ou de la france en générale.donner moi votre avis,
- ukit0
LOL - georges, do you really think I don't know history or the details of the Iranian Revolution?
For sure, US, France and other Western nations committed some fairly horrendous actions, whether in Iran, Africa or other parts of the world. I don't pretend otherwise. I hope you don't hold the fact that I happened to be born here in the States against me, it certainly doesn't mean I agree with every past or current action of the American regime;)
- ukit0
Anyway, I do agree with those who say the proposed law is mostly just an attempt by the UMP/ Sarkozy to kiss up to the nationalist sentiment...but I disagree with anyone who claims all Muslim women want to wear the hijab or that it is not a symbol of oppression.
- And it is France's choice in the end, let them make up their own minds about it.ukit
- georgesIII0
You sometimes right Ukit, and God knows how many time we've argueed,
but the part that I often don't agree with you, is that you often ignore why some part of the world are screwed up,and I'm not talking about things that happened a thousand years ago,
I'm talking about events that took place one or two generations away and are still fresh in some people's memory, because they are still living in those tyrannical statesnow that you were born in the US or not is not my problem, but you should think that if you were born in another spot of this planet (let say irak under saddam or US occupation) you wouldn't probably think, speak or act the way you do,
you don't chose where you end up but you still have to "deal with it" :)
- man how many time do I use often, I need to hit those english books againgeorgesIII
- but still you are after me about it...and not others...when I had nothing to do with it nor did my parents who aren't even Americanukit
- Americanukit
- Projectile0
Basically, it's freedom to practice one's own religion vs freedom to wear whatever one wants and gender equality.
They can't really stop arranged marriages and oppression of women, but what they CAN do is show that the country as a whole finds it unacceptable, and this is one of the few ways that they can do this.
I have nothing against any religion as long as they just quietly practice it, but religion should be a belief in something, not an all-out ritualistic, outdated bunch of nonsense. The burqa is a human invention by men, for the SOLE purpose of oppressing women, so I say ban it.
- georgesIII0
Projectile, youre totally right,
but why not ban all religious outfit all together,
why only muslim outfits?I'm sure catholics nun will love to wear jeans or amish in mini skirt,
but we never pick on them,lets ban all of them then.
- Nuns get to choose to be nuns...false analogyukit
- actually ukit, not all the muslim women are forced to wear one, should we make the choice for them,georgesIII
- do Amish, orthodox jews get to chose?georgesIII
- Sureukit
- Amish specifically let their kids choose, when they hit a certain age, whether they want to live that lifeukit
