Scottish independence
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- babaganush0
@rosko
Couldn't comment on the Scottish defence budget but ultimately the other savings aren't riches. Scotland cannot at 'hardball' and walk away from IOU's with no recourse. This is a top line clearly reiterated by financial institutions and trading businesses/country of any statute. Who do you think you will trade with...again you seem to be confusing anti- British politics with global trade ethics...it will go down as well with any trading country if any stature as it will with UK treasury. I.e not a trusted trading country. Good luck with those tactics
- chossy0
In 2012/13, Scotland’s onshore-only GDP per capita was £20,571, compared to £20,873 average for the UK.
I am Not worried about the debt.
- Generated by trading with whom? Your whole circumstance will change. You can't use this as a barometer for future tradebabaganush
- babaganush0
^
So in one sentence you have both alluded to deferring a debt over a decade or two whilst highlighting an option which will mean no one will trade with you due to the volatile attitude to repaying debt
- chossy0
Conversely babaganush the rest of the UK can't keep the house we paid the mortgage on. You want to keep sterling fair enough but do understand we will not contribute to it's debts. We would start off with a blank balance sheet propped up by and incredible amount of oil we absolutely would not need to borrow any money. Our oil fund would swell very quickly and we would be set up quite nicely.
Norway in 24 years built up around 1trn us dollars of a n oil fund, our oil will run out in 50 + years I'm not sure why this is a burden. Especially if we didn't take on any UK debt. Scotland oil makes up 15% of it's GDP and Norways oil makes up 30% of it's GDP.
- chossy0
Generated by trading with everybody on newly negotiated terms, where else will the rest of the UK get 20% of it's beef for example? ship it frae france aye? mind we have 25% of Europes renewables which will be invested into using oil money for example, in addition to this we will be able to control our fishing grounds as well. We can start new contracts with absolutely every country on the planet there is nothing stopping our trade whatsoever. I don't think for one minute the rest of the UK would cease to buy from us just as we would not cease to buy from you. UK stops buying from us we stop buying from you a sword cuts both ways.
- So ... We'd tolerate you walking away from 'British debt' but wouldn't buy your beef. Dream onbabaganush
- *wouldbabaganush
- babaganush0
I just outlined why no one will tolerate walking away from its debt any more than Greece could. So I am answering your questions. It's been clearly said that however the debt arose, it cannot be written off without recourse. So if you make a fortune from oil / that will be the primary source of recourse that countries will want to use as collateral. Writing off your debt to the Uk will make you a credit wrote off to a country with an established banking system. Hence why they are all considering moving.
- chossy0
No debt means no need for credit, incidentally Ireland (which pays it's pensioners more than we do) has less healthy finances than the UK and yet they enjoy better lending rates than the UK.
- babaganush0
But you already have debt. Look online to economic thoughts on Alex Salmond saying walking away from debt is an option. Never going to happen. Just to clarify, you really think walking away from proportional debt is a possibility? Without come back?
- chossy0
As I said babaganush, if you don't share we don't pay. You don't buy we don't buy. This is exactly why it will all be fine. We share currency we give you a couple of oil fields perhaps, maybe some more access to fisheries, possibly cheaper rates for electricity that kind of thing. Negotiations they happen all the time, we give you give. This is how things work.
You are coming at it from an incredibly hostile stand point and this I'm afraid will never work in negotiations.
- babaganush0
I'm not hostile at all. I started by probing some quite frankly ridiculous points a few pages back. You are confusing hostility for counter debate. I got tired of rhetoric (not from you).
I agree on negotiations constantly happening but I still don't see the figures adding up.
You start with a big debt that you defer (I'd bet my house it won't be dropped).
You lose I think at least 30,000 jobs off the bat through trident moving, the banks then need a stable platform from which to be underwritten (bank of England).
You maybe barter with your biggest immediate asset -
Oil. Primarily (possibly) to offset your immediate debt. Based on a
Scarce resource and promise if more oil even though companies like BP are washing their hands.You use GBP? Over which you have no control. Or you use euro
Greed is what is fucking up the UK and many feel the voice of the common man is better served together than secular thinking. There is plenty of wealth in the Uk it's about a concerted effort to see that wealth appropriated far, far more justly.
- babaganush0
The last paragraph if which Alastair darling has promised from a labour standpoint just as much as Alex Salmond - with a far greater ability to elucidate how they may do it. Both the people debating are debating for a better Scotland - not for it to be owned by England
- None of which will achieve it. They're politicians...but u don't see Salmond as the greater of two illsbabaganush
- *Ibabaganush
- chossy0
No currency union no debt.
30,000 jobs from trident are you kidding me? I think you should look again at that! most fo those people are not Scottish and do not live in Scotland, those 30,000 jobs will be filled by the 39,000 jobs to be created in the oil sector, http://www.imeche.org/news/engin…
Scarce resources exactly how do you figure that one?
Clair
Clair, the first fixed platform in the west of Shetland area, started producing in 2005. With an estimated eight billion barrels of oil in place, it is the largest oilfield in Europe. The field was discovered in 1977, but it was only with significant advances in technology and innovative engineering that the first phase of development was made possible. Clair Ridge, the £4.5 billion second phase of development, was confirmed in late 2011 and will see two new platforms installed and production starting in 2016. In 2013, a major appraisal drilling programme began to help define a possible third phase of development for Clair.
This is just going to start to produce. LARGEST OIL FIELD IN EUROPE.
This is some more oil which hasn't been touched yet, pretty horrible reading isn;t it regarding the will of the empire to lie to the people os Scotland on that one :'(
http://www.sundaypost.com/news-v…
In regard to your last paragraph CORRECT greed has fucked the UK we had 300 years to get it right and it's not worked, we would like to give it a go ourselves from now I hope we do well.
- The paragraph on clair ridge is taken from the BP site I forgot to link the page.chossy
- http://www.bp.com/en…chossy
- So oil isn't a scarce resource.!?! And again you still owe £109 billion off the bat. What will you barter with if not THAT oilbabaganush
- So it proposes 30,000 jobs of which the profits go straight to Scotland debt free? Come onbabaganush
- chossy0
Trident job numbers.
- chossy0
I think you should move on babaganush. You are not grasping any of this stuff at all.
We will only take on debt if we have a currency union with no union we will have very little debt, which will be worked through with oil money in a very timely manner. That will be the end of the discussion on this debt which you absolutely cannot grasp.
- chossy0
39,000 jobs to be exact.
- babaganush0
You seem to grasp dent as much as Alex Salmond. Again I've outlined argument based in trading reliability of a newly established nation that perhaps as you say isn't part if the currency but already had a blase attitude to debt commitments so a bit less patronising please. Again who is your trade based on.
You were selling the Brits beef two comments ago whilst now writing off billions of debt with the wave if a hand that is being frowned upon by Alex Salmonds apparent attitude that it is going to be allowed to happen.
- bumdrizzle0
The debt probably won't be walked away from, just like a full currency union isn't definitely off the table (Carney only said full sovereignty isn't possible in a currency union, not that it wouldn't happen). Trident will likely have to stay for a considerable length of time, probably on a lease. These are all bargaining positions. You don't offer what the lowest you would settle for before negotiations have even been entered into. Negotiations the SNP asked for incidentally, the UK gov refused as it suits their position to encourage uncertainty.
The UK gov could also have asked the EU for clarification on Scotland's position if independent (the SNP can't) but again they refused for the same reason.
The UK gov - Cameron specifically - also refused a third option on the ballot, 'devo max' - the same powers being offered now illegally as postal votes have already gone out.
Nobody is saying this is going to be a Utopia, Salmond himself is on record numerous times saying it will be hard - not a favoured soundbite for the media though. A media that bar one newspaper is exclusively hostile to independence.
There is information out there, but it's a little hard to come by. Quoting the Daily Mail doesn't suggest you have looked very hard.
- Correct. Hey my bike is for sale for £100 I'll take £80 lets begin haggling.chossy
- Daily mail was just a quick ref because I can't be bothered to look harder and their SEO
Must be quite goodbabaganush - But look through the thread! In context there is lots if utopia talkbabaganush
- Btw I applaud your comment. We didn't arrive here by well reasoned thoughts like thatbabaganush
- chossy0
We buy a house you and I, I say I'm not living here anymore I offer to pay my fair share in return for say one room out of four (four nations get it?) but you keep house and refuse to give me any of the rooms, only an imbecile would pay you money.
This will be the final word.
- Only this is debt checking on an inescapable level. So your options for landlord are severely limited as is your accomodation standardsbabaganush
- Standardsbabaganush
- bumdrizzle0
I'm sure babaganush also understands that a large amount of the deficit is simply an accounting position to accommodate the quantitative easing (printing money) that was required to bail out the banks. In effect the UK owes itself money. And the debts are serviced with interest payments. Not payable in full on demand.
- Actually, I'm way out my depth on this. But it's worth reading up on.bumdrizzle
