Scottish independence
- Started
- Last post
- 363 Responses
- rosko_picachu0
The list of cock ups from the government are undeniable. Here's some highlights.
http://www.greenbenchesuk.com/20…
Saying as we have a 670 page document about how we plan to do this, where is David Cameron's plan?
All they have is currency and the mere mention of that now is what has really swung the vote. Dollar, Yen, Euro, Chinese Yuan, then the pound. With no oil to back it up, and the gold sold off for a fraction of it's worth and only three small countries using it, how long will it have any real bargaining power in a global economy?
Wales, Northern Ireland and England gonna take on the likes of Brazil, India, China, US, Germany etc. are they? Good luck with that.
Or do the rules completely turn on 360degrees after a yes vote.
It's a concern for everyone, but if you're daft enough to give us a vote and be so patronizing about it, and don't take it seriously enough this is what can happen.
- GB minus Scotland will still trade far more freely with the people you mentioned than a newly independent minnow that Scotland will bebabaganush
- Scotland will bebabaganush
- rosko_picachu0
102!
- Wolfboy0
So not only are the Scots being held down by the oppressive English, they are also currently propping up the whole British economy?
Also, you do realise that David Cameron or even the Tory party in general are not the UK right? They don't even have a majority in the house and there is a general election looming - that's where most people in a democracy act when they don't like a government.
What is it you want independence from exactly?
The Tories?
The terrible burden of the other three Union members?
Or is it real life in general so you lot can get on with the Scottish wonderland that you've outlined in this thread (but I've not seen evidence of anywhere else in the actual campaign)?
- Not really. Tories didn't get enough majority in the lat election and labour chose the wrong milliband through Union strongarm tacticsbabaganush
- Strong arm tacticsbabaganush
- rosko_picachu0
No, the issues are exactly the same wherever you happen to be from.
Essentially what it will do is bring Scotland together as a community with shared interests. A lot of those shared interests are as relevant to someone in Skye, someone in Rotherham or someone in any other country.
We want to make choices that are relevant to us, and affordable.
Living in Scotland's generally pretty acceptable, we can drink the tap water, we have houses, we have electricity. Other than that, five minutes in a car in any direction and we've got pretty much everything we need.
We just don't need to be told how we should vote and if we vote in some way we are all bringing forth the apocalypse.
What might bring forth the apocalypse are fudged statistics based on austerity measures from the tory government, who's policies echo the policies of labour. Right now we don't really see the difference.
Essentially the oil's been drilled for a long time now and who has seen the real benefit of this? Did you see any of it?
To quote The Guardian,
"Our oil cash was magicked into tax cuts for the well-off, then micturated against the walls of a thousand pricey car dealerships and estate agents."
- babaganush0
Seriously. Oil is gone or going! To reap the rewards of natural energy sources as you have mentioned, you need money. You won't have a central and dependable international banking system. You will be volatile - people like Australian PM have said they don't see the benefit of an independent Scotland. As has been said, citing yes will be seen as gutsy...for a while. But no one will want to be the first to take a risk...except perhaps Sean Connery and Rod Stewart...just don't ask them to pay tax.
You seem a decent rational chap but you make no more sense than Alex Salmond. It's all rhetoric...much if Britain hates Tories and labour and feels let down by them.
- Don't take the Australian PM's word on anything at all. Anything.MrT
- babaganush0
Scotland will have to join the list to try to be in NATO so when you talk about Brazil, China or what not you need to look further as to tej fact that GB provides UNITY. Claus 5 of te treaty says 'An attack on one is an attack on all'. That won't include Scotland. So to think it will be about not doing business with the English, you will be hoping to not be seen as a Minnow in Europe (a currency less one at that ) OR grovel for trade links with China, Brasil...
- babaganush0
Assuming you automatically find a replacement for the tens of thousands if jobs that moving trident would cost, assuming you do reap the rewards of oil, you will still have over £100 billion debt in responsibility. That may well need to be bartered by revenues or ownership of oil fields or face reprisals from walking away from the debt.
- That article all so points out that unless EU changes policy Scotland will be expected to adopt the Euro. Seeing as The governor ofbabaganush
- Governor of the Bank of England told the TUC two days ago they wouldn't support Scotland using the pound - what does your leader have to saybabaganush
- Leader have to say? Nothing of valuebabaganush
- qoob0
Interesting debate. It seems like a lot of this is a backlash of the current government approach with austerity, higher taxes, etc. I hear a lot of English people basically saying "this is the way it is and that's it" and Scottish thinking they can build something better.
- it's not the austerity measures as such, it's all the shit beforehand that led to them. Scots are good at being austere :)detritus
- austere :)detritus
- That's basically it. But Salmond isn't William Wallace.babaganush
- babaganush0
I'm really not trying to beat up on Scottish independence. My old man is a staunch Celtic fan. But for those here who aren't familiar, trying to highlight the sheer astounding lack of answers that the SNP have. It offends me. It's wreckless and misleading.
- chossy0
What would you like an answer to babaganush? I will try my best to give you some answers.
- Take your pick. I don't really want answers but shoot at any of the points above. Currency stability is a startbabaganush
- How do you think Scotland will pay the £100 billion share of debt if not via selling parts of any oulfieldsbabaganush
- vaxorcist0
I'm sure its been said before, but are people concerned that if Scottland's MP's are not part of the UK parliment, then it's pretty much a conservative govt in the UK for a long time, due to the south's such strong over-representation in parliment?
Forgive my ignorance if this has already been dealt with, but it sounds like if California & New York seceded from the USA, we'd be stuck with republican presidents for a long time....
- It will certainly take away a lot if non-Tory voters but there's still a huge sentiment against Tory rule in the UKbabaganush
- chossy0
An answer for the debt question. In all outcomes our debt to GDP ratio will be lower than the rest of the UK's.
- detritus0
My main problem here is that if Scotland becomes independent, that makes me English :\
- how?organicgrid
- because i was born and lived a long time in England, and never in Scotland. There'll be no 'British' any more for medetritus
- organicgrid0
Why is Scotland seeking their independence, and what pushed Scotland into wanting their independence 300+ years later? Thanks.
- chossy0
I find an incredible amount of posts in this thread bizzare.
Take this post by babaganush for example.
"I'm really not trying to beat up on Scottish independence. My old man is a staunch Celtic fan. But for those here who aren't familiar, trying to highlight the sheer astounding lack of answers that the SNP have. It offends me. It's wreckless and misleading."
I offered some answers and he/she said this.
"Take your pick. I don't really want answers but shoot at any of the points above. Currency stability is a start"
It's just bizzare.
- In answer to your link. Basically pay £109 billion or defer the debt.babaganush
- You offered a document. No one expects a country to devolve without documents to back up. They don't stack up thoughbabaganush
- Aside from the obvious 'oil' card which needs a thread if it's own to handle all the holes in it. How will Scotland pay this debt. Either through plan a or plan b of your document?babaganush
- Through option 1 or 2 of your document?babaganush
- qoob0
@ organicgrid
This debate gives a good background on some of the reasons
- rosko_picachu0
"First up, the oil that's their isn't an exact figure, it could be less it could be a lot more. You can't be expecting anyone to be able to put an exact figure on it, so the numbers are played down, to be safe. These figures represent the least amount.
Now, the debt is complicated and how can you expect an answer to am issue that's not been negotiated yet?
Essentially Scotland borrows money, hopefully at a low level based on not the yearly revenues, which fluctuate, but lowest level figures over say a ten year period. It's all complicated due to the fact that the debt and the pension schemes are tied together.
Correct me if i'm wrong.
Now what people from the No camp seem to forget is that Scotland's costs will be drastically reduced because we won't have to spend so much on a defense budget which right now is £3.3bn.
Trimming it to Irish levels, we can save £2bn every year, which basically covers any shortfall.
Scotland also spends £700m a year on what the UK government calls “foreign office and other services”, £100m a year on the House of Lords and £10m a year on the Scotland Office. There are big savings to be made in each of these areas.
Scotland has an ageing population growing at half the speed it is in the UK. We can have a different immigration policy and bring in skilled workers, which boosts the economy and also make credit ratings agencies less likely to downgrade.
Scottish debt and deficit levels are currently lower than those of the UK as a whole.
Financial pressure will be their, but it won't be different to anyone else's and can be dealt with over a 10-15 year period, not 2 or five as the tories seem to think they can achieve, in between elections.
Tax increases for the top 10 per cent, higher corporation taxes and new levies on the financial sector.
If you want to play hardball, all IOUs issued to the holders of UK Treasury are the exclusive responsibility of the United Kingdom as the continuing state. It was the UK that issued the gilts and it is the UK that is the debtor state."
- rosko_picachu0
Check this out if you're in the uk:
- chossy0
Yes babaganush pay 109 Bn or defer the debt. that's the answer. In any case our finances will be in better shape than the rest of the UK. This is the answer to your question. I provided you with a document which you can read at your leisure.
Ask me another question, really I am not a man who gets angry or upset I am incredibly pragmatic.
- chossy0
Scotland without oil is just a little bit poorer than the rest of the UK but with oil we are significantly better off. We will pay our debt far more readily than the rest of the UK will of this be assured.