Scottish independence
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- rosko_picachu0
@sem, yes you managed to find some statistics about the population of London, thanks. Good insight that. You seem to think that because London has a high population, that's a fair point. What i was suggesting is that some of the decisions made have been shocking with an out of sight out of mind attitude. Nothing to do with so called nonsense claims that Scotland hates England. If it does it is because it has been seen as a backwater dumping ground.
I'd say it's stupid to dump 1 million tonnes of ordnance in Beaufort's Dyke and mix that with radioactive waste is kind of a ticking time bomb waiting to go off at any time.
- detritus0
Aye, Lowimpakt, that reminds me of an article I read 'this year or so' (which, annoyingly, I can't find or remember the source of - Economist, I think..?) which argued that much of the root cause of the London Problem is that its size in relation to sister cities across the country is vastly imbalanced compared to the spread of city sizes in other countries.
There's a hint of that argument here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finan…
This is the logic underpinning the probably flawed (in that it's not ambitious enough) HS2 train upgrades: that of bringing together northern metropolises (‘metropolii’?) to make a comparable 'super city' up in the 'North' (being from Northumberland, I'm bemused by people calling Manchester, which is in the midlands from my perspective, 'The North' :) )
- detritus0
I love/hate London - always have, since I used to visit family here as a kid, and was always perplexed by the self-involved, myopic bubble it lives in. Yet here I've lived, for all the reasons that the North is so pissed off about, for nearly 15 years — I couldn't do what I do (well, anyway) anywhere outside of here.
- I guess its the whole work to live, live to work argument.sem
- sem0
@rosko_picachu
You talk about waste dumping as if local politicians to the area played no part. I am fully aware that our Government do messed up shit, of corse. Its the fact that Scotland seems to have this idea that their new Government won't do the same. Somehow they will magically dispose of their waste by letting the fairies take it away to another universe.
- kingkong0
Being from the Lake district I hear everyone here, even though I've lived in and around london for 20 years now.
Truth is through Mr Salmond has played a blinder. London centricity affects England, it doesn't affect Scotland. They can vary income tax, their NHS is independent, their universities are free etc...
He's made huge political capital out of 'them down there' stealing our money and resources. Truth is that's not the case. Scotland gets slightly more than it raises and if you're being kind it spends what it raises.
But the idea that they will be better of financially when independent is ludicrous. Beyond ludicrous, it's school boy fantasies.
If he just came out and said this is about emotive nationalism not rational economics I'd be fine with it, truth is he's just lying and praying on the all to well trodden facist path of everything being someone else fault.
Him and Farage should get a room.
- i_monk0
What will happen to the Union Jack if Scotland votes for independence?
- Wolfboy0
@detritus
Did you see the series of programmes made by Evan Davis on the Beeb? It was called mind the gap:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/…
I thought it was quite even handed and had some great stuff about the potential in the north around the area I originally come from. Also there is a pile of bullshit from Boris Johnson who really shows why it's easy for the rest of the country to dislike the politician and London.
I think the idea of faster trains is a great one, but the current London to the M62 corridor is only about 2.5 to 3 hours right now which is hardly dawdling. So maybe a better project would be a cross country rail link across the north. Superfast Leeds to Manchester to Liverpool and a branch off to the North East too. There would be a great power base created there.
There is a great bit about the history of St Pancras station in London. It was actually a 'fuck you' from the idustrial north to the south. It was built with northern textiles money as a show of strength. While all the other stations were utilitarian buildings, visitors to that station saw a magnificent building housing the train lines that took you to the powerhouse north.
'KING IN THE NORTH!!!' and all that.
- rosko_picachu0
I think it went along the lines of, "Shoot, where can we dispose of these chemical weapons without it impacting the natural heritage of England's coastline and to cover it up, because their would be hell to pay if the English population didn't like that, whereas Ireland and Scotland can just be ignored, probably because the population isn't big enough or perhaps because it never had a voice. Like i said, out of sight out of mind. Short term policy, long term effect. Even last year plans were being discussed to dispose of England's nuclear waste in Scotland before a referendum vote. This is how unimportant Scotland's natural heritage is to some daft politicians.
- sem0
^ Can we please not ignore the HS2 rail which is being built and has been a huge pain in the arse for some in London to help bring those in the north the chance to commute into London for work etc?
I mean, they could do more yes. But they are not ignoring the North.
http://www.hs2.org.uk/interactiv…- Why don't they work in the North? invest where they are? Instead of bringing them to London.chossy
- lowimpakt0
whatever happens, the highlands and islands will still be one of the most beautiful places on the planet.
- robotron3k0
Aye.
- sem0
England for the Women.
Scotland for the views.Great things can happen when we work together ;)
- Fuck that, I had the horn constantly when I was in Edinburgh. Next time, I'm taking the GF.detritus
- So. Many. Gorgeous. Girls.detritus
- Facts > Opinion again. Supermodel's from UK vs Scotland. :Psem
- beauty is necessarily opinion, being as it is in the eye of the beholder! Still, I stand by it as fact. :)detritus
- Detritus, all the hot girls were probably all the tourists that hit the town through the summermicrokorg
- rosko_picachu0
BTW since when was a right wing politician, wanting away from the EU, even comparable to Alex Salmond? Alex Salmond has been kept out of the English public domain as much as possible. I'm sure he's just an easy target for the daily mail brigade, to finely time some sound bites to noise up the people such things are aimed at.
Truth is Alex Salmond is just a normal guy. Quite down to Earth, maybe Farage is, but there policies are light years apart. Sorry man, i'm all for Independence and it's not so we can shut up the borders or abandon the debt. if you paid attention to the thing for longer than two months, you'd notice one side's argument involves crashing the system, whereas our doesn't.
if you're looking for someone to blame go blame David Cameron.
Last night on the news, our glorious leader was told by his aide, that scotland were here. All it was, was a TV camera. He looked terrified because he had no script. That is what you have right now.
Go watch the news and you'll see what's going on in the world.
Go look at the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, to secure a gas pipeline from Uzbekistan. Politicians sitting on Enron'sboard, doing deals starting wars. Latest ones are what, Russia and ISIS.
Don't want to be associated with wars where the majority of people who get killed are civilians. How much money was wasted on those?
How many breaches of the Geneva conventions? What about one minute the EU not being important and then scurrying off to the EU to get permission to put sanctions on Russia? Who takes the hit on that, the Russian people. This is international policy.
Well get ready for a change big time. All that stuff does not interest an independent scotland one iota. See all these big jobs in London for filling in forms and the like. How long before those jobs are all automated? The simple building blocks for life are easy enough to get. Like do you know how much food is exported from Scotland and how much is imported? It's ridiculous. We export Aberdeen Angus for happy meals. Things need to change. Hopefully this is the start of something good for the whole of the UK. Why because people in England will begin to get the things Scotland has been introducing.
England don't like Scotland's approach to joined up thinking, well start copying us before we to no doubt get swallowed up by capitalism
- < Assumes only Dail Mail readers dislike Salmond. Says a lot.sem
- I like how your points always sway WAYYYY off into other factors such as Iraq etc lolsem
- As if no Scotts ever voted for a Government that pushed us into a war the people didn't want. Sure mate, sure.sem
- The SNP are delusional racist fantasists. Salmond is, however, quite smart and exploiting these bozos.comicsans
- detritus0
I like threads like that draw people out of the woodwork!
- Yeah I didn't think there were as many of us in the UK on here.sem
- If it's a Yes vote we should have a QBN drinks on the new border. We could get a long trestle table and it'll be like that room that crosses the N&S Korean borders.Wolfboy
- That crosses the N&S Korean borders.Wolfboy
- We can get drinks and all accept that regardless of this outcome, religion will fuck us all in time :Psem
- Wolfboy0
@Rosko
I think the comparison between Farage and Salmond is a useful one. Maybe not on their politics, but in the manner they present their arguments in a vague and shouty manner but become incredibly evasive when it comes to facts. As previously discussed they appeal to people making a decision based on emotion rather than rational thinking. Shouty politics with paper thin ideas on how to achieve them, I think the debates showed that. That second one that he apparently 'won' was all about the passion he clearly had for Scotland but the lack of answers to the big questions seemed to be a side note. Very similar to Farage talking about Europe.
What I would say is that Salmond does not represent anything different when it comes to politics, you can slag off Westminster and the members down here but it is just ridiculous to say you'd get anything different in terms of the type of people running an independent Scotland.
Again it's talk of this Scottish utopia that is somehow inevitable. Why should it be when you have the same scum bag MPs that we all have. As previously mentioned they are already selling off the NHS up there to foreign private health companies.
And I say again, the one thing that will definitely happen in time is the rise of the traditional Scottish right through the natural balance of party politics. It is only held down now through a hatred of the English Tory party (no issue with that by the way). With independence there will be no reason for that political base not to start voting for the new Scottish right leaning parties. And at the end of the day a right wing scum bag is the same in a kilt or in trousers.
- rosko_picachu0
This is daft right, but look at how nervous everyone is about disposing nuclear waste in England and how perfectly acceptable it would be to dump it in Scotland.
- hans_glib0
rosko_picachu - you sound like you've been listening to Tony Banks. I met him at a debate held down here in evil London for expat Scots. He said pretty much the same thing - government is broken and it needs fixing. WHich is why they want independence to build a new model for the rest of the UK and world to follow. As an armchair anarchist and general loather of our timewasting rulers I was sold.
Though I do wonder if it isn't all pie in the sky.
- sem0
This is the thing, most English WANT Scotland to vote yes.
They want Scotland to be responsible and they wish them the best of luck. Its just a little insulting to hear people like "We have a magic plan, and its defo going to work" like there is some magical economy cheat on a game controller that the UK's politicians (despite being highly experienced) just didn't know about or want to do for shits and giggles because they have all enjoyed seeing others suffer for personal gain.
Some yes, but all? every past Government and Member? mate.
- hans_glib0
hmm i don't think any of our current politicos have the nous to cheat the population. more that they're too self serving and/or incompetent to do anything useful. that's not to say the faeries in scotland will do better, as i think they're probably worse.
i like the concept he was selling, though i'm dubious of his ability to deliver said change.
and no i don't want the scots to say yes. i want them to grow up and stop wingeing.
- babaganush0
@ rosko is planning on living in Brigadoon