Atheists.
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- tommyo0
Designbot:
I'm not saying that it ALWAYS comes down to people trying to make others believe what they do, not in the slightest. I have plenty of conversations with people about their faith and only rarely do I feel as if they are trying to convert me, or save me. I'm just interested in learning in their beliefs as they are about mine.
I'm sorry but I don't feel like 'truth' isn't as concrete a word as you claim it to be. Truths are very much subjective which is why we're commonly 'searching' for it. Interchange the word 'truth' with 'belief' if you disagree with my presentation of the word and it still represents exactly the same thing I meant it to mean. 'Truth' to me is always subjective to personal perception when applied to a topic that really has no widely accepted solidified version...i.e....religion.
So if we do have proof that eliminates all, or any, belief systems that would then make "not one of us has proof of our beliefs" an untrue statement - I'd love to see it. Bible doesn't count, unless of course you're prepared to champion one book of faith over another as the ultimate truth. Which btw, kind of proves my point. How can one discount another persons belief based on their own belief when evidence of such a belief is only a product of historical record. I'm not challenging your faith, I'm just pointing out that there are many systems out there and the only proof there is for any of them is historical literature of their system. Proving it to everyone, concretely, is like a dog chasing it's tail I'm afraid. So the only thing we can then stand on is our own personal faith in what we believe. Which by definition is not exactly 'proof.'
In summary, can't we all just believe what we want to and let God, Shiva, Jesus, Allah, Mother Earth sort us out in the end?
- teleos0
Atheism is an untenable position. You cannot produce positive evidence that there is no God. A more honest position is agnostic.
I think it would be very difficult to be a hardline atheist these days with all of the evidence for design replete throughout nature. From the nano-machinery and programming in every cell to the fine tuning of the cosmological constants to support life on this planet. It's staggering really.
- No, it's not. You, like me, are too stupid and ignorant to understand it all, is all.
*dances 'round mulberry bush*Nairn - HELLO. MY NAME IS:
AthiestTheBlueOne - ps. http://www.qbn.com/t…Nairn
- hey more emotional outbursts sans facts from Nairn! I'm shocked.teleos
- Whither the emotional outburst? You misunderstand my use of 'ignorant and stupid', clearly.Nairn
- Or do you presume to understand everything in your God's domain? Christ, even I'd not be so arrogant...Nairn
- haha! teleos is hilarious. all the evidence for design? that's comedy gold!spifflink
- Not to mention the 'fine tuning of cosmological constants'... Never heard of the anthropic principle?ribit
- No, it's not. You, like me, are too stupid and ignorant to understand it all, is all.
- TheBlueOne0
I happen to think that "truth" is fairly subjective and context dependent.
"Facts" tend to be more concrete,but limited and local.
And then there are these things which I call "truer than true" and you tend to encounter them in mystical experiences, in combat, in childbirth, on single malt scotch benders and in poetry.
But that's MY lexicon. I understand gramme and designbots use of the word "truth" is different from mine.
- < this statement is the truth. hehehetommyo
- I see what you did there.TheBlueOne
- Good. I've always said you were a clever little fox.tommyo
- I've been told I had the "eyes of the wolf" once.TheBlueOne
- Sure ya do.tommyo
- Renegade0
Michelle Malkin is more wacked-out more than Bill O'Reilly!!!
- gramme0
Here's the crux of the matter tommyo, and know that I hear, understand and respect your opinions on these matters. I especially appreciate your civility and self-control.
I don't believe that belief and truth are interchangeable words. I don't believe that truth requires one's belief to ratify it's existence.
If, as in your definition, truth and belief are synonymous, then truth must be eliminated altogether in favor of subjective preference or opinion. If truth is not a certain set of fixed points, i.e. if I have no North star outside of my own perception, then really the only concrete statement of truth one can make is that we each create our own truth. If we each create our own truths, then we are each gods—because no regular human is capable of truth-creation ex nihilo.
And that, my friend, is a horribly depressing paradigm. If I am a god, I am the lousiest of deities with my finite understanding, my imperfections, my sect of one. If I am a god who creates his own truth, then existence outside of my personal experience does not matter, because there is no truth but that which I concoct. Physical evidence and historical records become meaningless when everything is relative. I believe based on what I see in the world, that this world is in fact concrete, whether I am here to witness it and ratify its existence or not.
To put oneself, or any other person, on such a pedestal is the ultimate in self-righteousness.
- belief and truth are definitely not interchangeable.sputnik2
- Nairn0
Theism is an untenable position. You cannot produce positive evidence that there is a God. A more honest position is agnostic.
- Now you're being emotional. In an outbursty manner.TheBlueOne
- safe does not = honest, friend Nairn.gramme
- tell that to teleosspifflink
- Renegade0
While our Christian brothers and sisters slaughter innocent children and their mothers in Iraq this Christmas, Fox News wants to make Atheism an issue, what a joke, bunch of hypocrites!
- But..but..there's a war on christmas!!! I mean..
apparently...somewhe...TheBlueOne
- But..but..there's a war on christmas!!! I mean..
- BattleAxe0
do Atheists believe in Aliens?
- Dawkin's doesdesignbot
- That;s a different flavour of 'belief'.Nairn
- Define "aliens"...if you mean is there other life out htere or are their little green aliens in saucers buzzing Dallas..TheBlueOne
- advanced life forms outside our planet , and with internet 2000.0BattleAxe
- odds are that there arespifflink
- and dawkins 'hypothetically does' notwithstanding ben steins' intellectually bankrupt 'documentary'spifflink
- teleos0
Its very challenging to support the truth is relative claim. In doing so one is hoisting themselves on their own petard. In effect, "it is absolutely true that truth is not absolute." You see my point.
We all practice absolute truth daily. We look both ways before crossing streets because we all absolutely agree that we will be hurt or killed if we do not. We all agree that certain evils are indeed evil, invariably.
- designbot0
^ Right to say truth is relative....you must be coming from a position where you have TRUTH in order to know this. It's self defeating, as I said before.
- teleos0
"Theism is an untenable position. You cannot produce positive evidence that there is a God. A more honest position is agnostic."
I don't believe this is true because I believe there is positive evidence for the theistic position:
- cellular machinery and programming.
- information
- consciousness
- fine tuning of cosmological constants
- human consciousness and "qualia"
..to name a few
- Again, you're ignorant and stupid - and just to temper your assumptions - all of Man is ignorant and stupid.Nairn
- Anyway, whatever.Nairn
- How about I promise to stop mangling the bible if you promise to stop mangling science...TheBlueOne
- show me exactly where i'm mangling science first.teleos
- and i mean *exactly* where.teleos
- pretty much every post where you assert design(GOD) is responsible for life.spifflink
- the 'positive evidence' listed here isn't even properly explained.ribit
- for example what 'fine tuning' are you talking about? (There isn't any evidence of any tuning)ribit
- gramme0
Truth is taken on or cast away for the sake of convenience. I find that to be a common pattern of belief and behavior among my non-Christian friends, and unfortunately among certain Christian circles too.
- Truth evolves with every new mote of information we happen upon. The though of an absolute truth is horrific.Nairn
- ...at this early stage in our evolution, anyway. Though, of course you don't believe in evolution, so... *whistles*Nairn
- says nairn, making absolute statements. I love it so!teleos
- talk about your self-defeating reasoning.teleos
- Ok then, I don't know what truth is - and I believe you don't either.Nairn
- John 14:6teleos
- But for the sake of argument Nairn, what if you are mistaken? What if at least some truth can be known?gramme
- How would I know which one?Nairn
- The only truth I believe in is - that there's no truth but that which we make ourselves.Nairn
- Then you need a remedial course in philosophy.teleos
- No, I don't.Nairn
- And stop trying to flame bait me with your haughty arrogance - you're as bad as anyone else here.Nairn
- At least I'm nakedly arrogant - I don't hide my loathing for you and your childish beliefs.
"I'm truthier than you!"Nairn - this is an unfortunate side effect of a terrible public education system that doesn't teach critical thinking skillsspifflink
- designbot0
Here is a question....
If truth is relative, then what are we searching for?
- Ourselves.gramme
- LoveTheBlueOne
- Nothing?Nairn
- Hope.
Comfort.
Betterment.
But, ultimately, nothing.Nairn - a webcamBattleAxe
- I reject "nothing" as a thing worth searching for. I don't think anyone is searching for "nothing"gramme
- Nothing is by definition a non-thing. I have yet to find a nihilistic rabbit trail worth pursuing.gramme
- Ah, well, 'material gain' isn't something I wanted to write down.Nairn
- rainman0
Keep religion out of politics and school and maybe Atheists will leave Christmas be.
- teleos0
" ^ Right to say truth is relative....you must be coming from a position where you have TRUTH in order to know this. It's self defeating, as I said before."
It's like the old blind men and the elephant analogy: we're all just a bunch of blind men feeling different parts of the elephant - "it's a tree trunk", "no, it's a huge wall like creature", "no it's soft and flexible" etc... The problem is the person employing this line of reasoning must be claiming to be all knowing because they in fact know it is really an elephant. They are in effect standing back and observing the blind men groping around on the elephant. It's an arrogant claim really.
- so you are the only one with sight? you speak of arrogance like you aren't horribly guilty of possesing vast amounts of it.spifflink
- TheBlueOne0
"Is there a god" is not a scientific question, and if you spend your time spinning wheels with all your little "fine tuning of cosmological constants" and whatever arguments I really have to wonder what you're looking for in your pursuit of your spiritual needs.
- tommyo0
Well see this kind of depends on 'what your definition of is, is' right? Kind of silly to debate this while I do see and understand your point. But if you look back to where this debate about 'truth' started. It was used as 'personal truths' in reference to us all possessing the ability to have them and at the same time none of our truths to supersede the truths of another. I do see what you mean however and I guess I don't adopt a hard definition of 'truth'...like TBO said, I also believe that the word truth is a few rungs lower on the ladder than 'fact.' So anyhow this really boils down to usage of a word.
- Renegade0
All in the name of God!
Christianity is responsible for more death and destruction to this world than natural disasters throughout history.
- lol natural disasters! haha Do your homework renegade - more death happened in the 20th century alone due to...teleos
- atheist/materialist regimes, than all prior centuries due to "religious" conflict.teleos
- see: Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc...teleos
- dont you see renegade, it all depends on how teleos defines 'atheist/materialist... duh!spifflink
- TheBlueOne0
Teleos: Tell me how you can devise a test to falsify God and I'll admit it's a scientific question.
- You don't nor do i claim that we can. You don't read my posts well enough.teleos