Atheists.
- Started
- Last post
- 184 Responses
- lifterBARON0
I have no idea how this conversation got here.. But it sounds fuckin rad. The moral of the story is, read books and question everything. Fuck people who tell you that you are wrong and they are right without being able to provide and logical evidence or explanation. We don't exist and reality is a distraction.
- you will most likely never know the secrets of the universe, so wouldn't it be safe to assume it's a matter of faith ->a_iver
- either faith in a belief system or faith in a set of observations (when either of them could be correct, incorrect, or something else.)a_iver
- else.a_iver
- why not strive to 'know'?ribit
- ukit0
KweisJ, what you are describing is so abstract that it's almost neither here nor there whether it even exists or not. If God is just some kind of cosmic force at the root of everything, why would it matter if we call it God or not? What good would praying do? What impact would it have on morality?
- It seems like you are just calling it God for the sake of having something to call Godukit
- because morality is rational and human and priority in this sense for GodKwesiJ
- God is as much a word game as a reality game. its a logic itself interwoven with experience.KwesiJ
- Well, I can say that we have evolved a certain kind of morality and it has the same implication/ meaningukit
- You are basically reducing God to nothing in an effort to make his existence plausibleukit
- there's no room for nihilism in meaningful and substantial existanceKwesiJ
- i'm reducing God i'm improving its image to explain its presenseKwesiJ
- sorry typo: NOT reducing god.KwesiJ
- Just because you don't believe in God, doesn't mean you are a nihilistukit
- The idea of "meaning" and "purpose" are very human concepts IMO, not necessarily relevant to any kind of larger truthukit
- truth or realityukit
- not calling anyone a nihilist i'm saying acknowledging 'meaning' in existance suggests an intellegenct 'God'. the reverse is nihilistic atheism.KwesiJ
- ....reverse is nihilistic atheism.KwesiJ
- it si a bit of a word game but becomes closer to the ancient notion of God and gods in human life. i don't think God will go away.KwesiJ
- ...will go away in future.KwesiJ
- KwesiJ0
'creator' doesn't have to mean 'first cause' so much as a continual cause, so within infinite realms the God is still the absolute 'creator' force
- moth0
"The idea that space and time may form a closed surface without boundary also has profound implications for the role of God in the affairs of the universe. With the success of scientific theories in describing events, most people have come to believe that God allows the universe to evolve according to a set of laws and does not intervene in the universe to break these laws. However, the laws do not tell us what the universe should have looked like when it started -- it would still be up to God to wind up the clockwork and choose how to start it off. So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end: it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?
What I have done is to show that it is possible for the way the universe began to be determined by the laws of science. In that case, it would not be necessary to appeal to God to decide how the universe began. This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary. "
~ Stephen W. Hawking
- ukit0
I have no doubt that the world we see is a reflection of some kind of larger reality. But a reflection of a thinking God that answers our prayers, gets angry at individual people, and beams his son down to Earth in human form to be gruesomely murdered? You lost me there.
- no you lost yourself when you so narrowly define God as a story book sort of character.KwesiJ
- you're trivialising the 'higher reality' as something that can't be this so called God...when it should be acknowledged as that which is most like God, God.KwesiJ
- ...that which is most like God, so logically as God itself, the REAL God.KwesiJ
- I'm trivializing it? I think the Bible and organized religion are doing that.ukit
- no you're trivialism religion and history and many people's knoweldge and ideas.KwesiJ
- If you want to call whatever is at the root of reality God, fine, so be it.ukit
- And i don't mean to trivialise what you're saying but you're trivialising for the sake of upholding staunch atheismKwesiJ
- But do you agree or disagree with the literal interpretation of the Bible? That's kind of what we're arguing here.ukit
- no i disagree with the literal interpretation of the bible but thats not to say it holds some hefty weight historically and intellectually.KwesiJ
- there's lots philosophy and early forms of history writing in it, its facinating really.KwesiJ
- but the discussion around God should have some real persepective beyond the BIble itself just like its always been. Aristotle didn't have the Bible.KwesiJ
- Aristotle didn't have a Bible.KwesiJ
- KwesiJ0
you think about it backwards...its not a humanlike conciousness at the root of everything, there's a god like conciousness at the heart of all conciousness. Thats God, we're a small reflection of that. Just like our bodies are composed of psychsical matter our human conciousnes is an effect of cosmic intellegence.
- ukit0
I am not absolutely ruling out there is a God...there well could be, despite the fact there isn't much evidence for one that I can see. But there could also be millions of other possible explanations, all equally likely or unlikely. The universe could be riding on the back of a giant tortoise for all I know.
Think about this though...if we zoom down to the cellular level, you wouldn't see much that reminded you of a full sized, intelligent human being. It would be a completely alien world. Similarly, if we zoom up many more orders of magnitude to the meta level, it strikes me as highly unlikely that there's a human-like consciousness at the root of everything, much less an old man with a beard. The actual nature of reality is probably far too bizarre for us to ever imagine, much less for primitive humans to have grasped thousands of years ago when the Bible was written.
- primative humans are aware of the exact same reality we are and they still know GodKwesiJ
- gentleman0
this also made me smile
- 3point141590
- read the fucking thread.
We're not doing too badly here.moth - fuck you atheist!3point14159
- read the fucking thread.
- mikotondria30
actually Gramme, I live about 5 miles from the 44 :)
- moth0
gramme - I believe in myself and my upbringing. I have faith only in myself. Right and wrong has evolved through mans trials and errors. We are quite possibly the only creatures in existence to be able to contemplate death and seek to avoid it, prevent it, remove ourselves from harm, and generally thus desire to be comfortable. Running around clubbing each other to death didn't make life easier.
Just as I'm sure you believe that God presented you with all these miracles mystical events, I believe you presented them to yourself, just I have presented to myself my own achievements and goals. I believe I can attain things. I believe I can will myself to improve, and I will improve. That's my faith right there. I call it positive thinking. You call it God. The output is the same.
I'd also agree with you that we are going backwards. Not everyone is as enlightened as you or me think we are. I don't have faith in other people to ALWAYS do the right thing. In an ever increasing population this becomes more evident, and by the failure of your Gods' or evolutions' design, we're still animals who WILL and DO regress to instinct and fear and violence to survive when pushed.
God is the result of our fear of this failing.
God is, perversely, the apparent (and blindingly obvious given the amount of blood spilt) catalyst for our failure.
Religion is the atrophy of man.
I heartily believe we would survive a little longer without it. Not a lot, but a little.
Stripped bare, we are animals.
- If God makes you strong gramme, the keep him.
But he's only the middle man to your good self ;)moth
- If God makes you strong gramme, the keep him.
- gentleman0
also made me smile
- gentleman0
also..
im with gramme on this
but also with moth
but also against both...you cant prove it, you cant disprove it.
so its unreasonable to believe and unreasonable to outright deny it.its prerogative.
common sense tells me if neither side is outright correct.. to withdraw my vote.. hence agnosticism.
but you take that a step further.. and you start to think that there is too much time spent debating the to's and fro's and it takes me to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apa…
end of
- gramme0
Moth & Miko:
Do you believe in right and wrong? Where does this sense come from? Do you think it's wrong to murder, cheat, or steal? If so, then why?
A common answer I've heard to this question is that as mankind has evolved physically, we have also evolved socially. We have found systems and codes of behavior that are beneficial for all. For example, not killing other people is beneficial to the perpetuity of the human race.
OK, I can buy that idea in theory, just like I can buy socialism in theory. But when the bullet leaves the barrel, the above answers fall apart.
Ever since the beginning of recorded history, there have been moral codes. Who first made those? What evidence do we have that they evolved into place over the millions of years since the dawn of man? For those who believe morality is merely the product of social evolution, do you really believe we are improving as a global society? I think the increasing incidence of war, greed, and corruption (the two latter brought us to our current economical conundrum), says otherwise. I think in some ways, we are going backwards. I think that when we ignore the source of the moral code which to some extent is written on the heart of every man, woman, and child, we begin to forget who we are, why we are here, and how we begin to ignore external, overriding moral codes in favor of our own personal codes.
My brother was just telling me about a paper written by an atheistic scientist who is a student of evolution. This person was writing about social patterns of sex and procreation, and was discussing rape in particular. He concluded that rape is acceptable, because it is a man's natural inclination to spread his seed and ensure the perpetuation of his race. He believed that because this is our natural physical bent—to take without asking—that it is acceptable to ignore moral codes in favor of natural ones. What's next, pedophilia?
This is the "natural" conclusion of a paradigm which refuses to acknowledge God. When they metaphysical doesn't exist, there is nothing but natural law, and anything in man's nature that goes against his conscience becomes acceptable.
Though God is extra-human, above our full understanding, he is a reasonable God as shown in Scripture. When I accept that the only moral code was authored by God—a being smarter and wiser than any human ever born—then I can rest assured that said code was created for my benefit and betterment.
I'm not sure that someone maintain contact with logic and honestly claim that the above is delusion. I submit that it is delusional to believe that our natural tendencies must override any metaphysical promptings. Because I see evidence of the soul in each person by reason of the evidence above (i.e. moral code), I think that to ignore conscience and absolute truth is to de-man man and make of him an animal. And I for one, my friends, and not a fucking animal.
- Furthermore, how does defense of the poor and needy fit in with the survial of the fittest?gramme
- When and how did we decide that it is beneficial for humanity to look out for the weak?gramme
- this is a decent explanation: http://plato.stanfor…spifflink
- don't claim something doesn't work out because you don't understand itspifflink
- that's just the thing, I do believe I understand it. You will of course disagree...gramme
- gentleman0
agnostic..
fence sitting - theres better things to worry about.
if there is a god - scripture says he's looking out for us (granted - if you believe... but what if you dont disbelieve... is he that lenient? if not - i dont want to have nowt to do with him
)
if there isnt - i dont want to spend the little time we have here worshipping thin air.win-win
- 3point141590
Bump for Jesus!
- gramme0
Moth:
I would not believe you to be Jesus returned because there is nothing about you that fits the Biblical profile of Christ.
