Politics
- Started
- Last post
- 33,772 Responses
- Dr_Sparkleshine0
"...the argument of Howard Dean and others is that this bill actually does more harm than good. The argument is not, well, since it’s not pure enough ideologically or it’s not perfect, it should be defeated; the argument is that it actually does more harm than good, because it reinforces the monopoly status of the private healthcare industry and, at the same time, forces huge numbers of Americans, many of whom will not be able to afford it, to buy products that are inadequate and that they do not want. It perpetuates the very system that supposedly was the impetus in the first place for healthcare reform to pass."
- mathinc0
ukit, how does that reduce the cost of healthcare? I'm referring to healthcare costs in general.. not just to me and you. The issue is that the overall costs of healthcare have done something like doubled in 10 years. It's unsustainable. So how does this bill actually reduce the overall costs of healthcare.. you know, reducing the costs of pharmaceuticals, limiting doctors from doing extensive and sometimes unnecessary procedures just so that they can make more from insurance companies. Things like that. How are they achieving it?
- FFS, your post specifically talked about your grandma and her personal cost.ukit
- No I used that as an example.mathinc
- to illustrate the costs of healthcare.mathinc
- I just told you there's going to be a huge change to that cost (currently there is NO cap) and you act like it's nothingukit
- unlike you I care more about the whole than myself.mathinc
- HOW DOES THAT CHANGE THE COST OF HEALTHCARE IN GENERAL????mathinc
- ANSWER MY QUESTION!!! (see I'm doing my best Rick impersonation)mathinc
- you are infatuated with me, Tommy.DrBombay
- I want to feed you lead based paint.mathinc
- You mean cost to the health care industry or what? They will have millions of new customers.ukit
- Seems to ate it all already. Now stop talking to me.DrBombay
- DrBombay0
Another thing that blows my mind is that conservatives act like this is some sort of huge mistake, to do anything at all about health care. As if:
a. the current system is working great
b. America, financially, is doing any better than any other country that already has a form of national health care.
c. American healthcare is any better than these other countries that already have some sort of national healthcare.
All three of these things have been proven to be false. Undeniably. Yet these same arguments are still being used daily. I just don't get how certain people can just invent their own reality because that is what they wish were true.
- A=the best in the world, bar none
B=America has always been the economic leader and still is
C=See "A"******** - C=See "A"********
- best in the world?? haha!spifflink
- A=the best in the world, bar none
- Dr_Sparkleshine0
Ah, fuck it. Pass it, don't pass it. Truth is the little guy does and will not win. Somehow the Health Insurance Industry will walk out the door with more money no matter what happens, via loopholes, and you will have less healthcare somehow. The system is broken. Utterly.
- PonyBoy0
how many of you fuckers have actual life-threatening / life-ending health issues?
- Not sure what bearing that has on anything.DrBombay
- I have type 1 diabetes.mathinc
- it has a massive bearing on one's opinion, dobs - i'm reading plenty of anecdotal stories and personal opinion...PonyBoy
- ... how about someone step up and speak from experiencePonyBoy
- Does my Mother count in your world?DrBombay
- We love your mother.mathinc
- what's wrong with your mother?... i seem to recall her losing her job was a 'tragedy' to you months ago...PonyBoy
- ... so I'm dying to hear what you consider an major health problemPonyBoy
- an = aPonyBoy
- Fuck off, Kevin.DrBombay
- wow... can't handle it when someone touches something close to home... can you, dobs?PonyBoy
- heartless asshole.DrBombay
- you can sure dish the shit though over and over, huh?PonyBoy
- Cancer without insurance is a day at the beach. I sure can't take it, right?DrBombay
- mathinc0
Hey Rick, I know you like people to answer direct questions.. so..
How does this bill reduce the cost of healthcare industry?
- ukit0
All I'm saying is -
End on insurance dropping you from coverage because you got cancer
Cap on payments for health care at 10% of your incomeHow can you say you don't want those reforms? And again, this is not extra spending, it's a change in regulation. The way some of you talk it's like we can't change any government law or it's communism FFS.
- Can't they just focus on that then?mathinc
- Why do they need to also force insurance? Why do they need to pass legislation that keeps drugs expensive?mathinc
- LOL - they areukit
- At what cost are we paying for these things? And why should we pay for them? Why no public option?Dr_Sparkleshine
- Since you are concerned about industry cost, the mandate is what makes the other reforms possible.ukit
- If you forced insurance cos to accept all patients without also adding healthy people into the risk pool, they would go broke.ukit
- Likewise with the cap.ukit
- haha yeah okay. You're right, this bill benefits us all. Dropping all the politics you know that this is all bullshit.mathinc
- You got some substance-based argument go with that?:)ukit
- mathinc0
"The way some of you talk it's like we can't change any government law or it's communism FFS. "
Who the hell said that? Shit change the laws, just change them for the better..
- Not you, but calling it a "government takeover" is ridiculous. It's working within the private system and modernizing it.ukit
- PonyBoy0
c'mon, folks...
... enough of the stories about mommy and grandma and your friend of a friend etc...... speak up about the hardships YOU are dealing with...
... cuz if things are as difficult as some of you are making it out to be - I don't understand how you have the money to be on the internet whining about it... you MUST be broke... life must damned near be ending for you!!... PLEASE... tell me about how hard it is FOR YOU.
why am I being a dick?
Cuz so far after all the months of talk in this thread - I've yet to see someone step up and actually describe 'how difficult' it is from your own personal perspective... YOUR COSTS... your life...
... c'mon guys... speak up... let's have the personal accounts... I can't see how so many of you are such experts w/out firsthand experience.
- mathinc0
So, access to healthcare is the important thing. Cost prohibits access. Costs have been rising so quickly that lots of people don't have access anymore. We can all agree on these points, I would hope. But costs don't seem to be your concern. You want access for all without really thinking about the underlying issue. And as much as I've seen this bill doesn't do anything but mandate access, and raise the costs. How long do you think it will be before the whole thing comes crashing down? You have to address both access and cost. Lowering costs gives you access, but improving access does not lower cost. The unfortunate thing is that the people who control cost have government by the balls, so cost isn't going to change.
There are other solutions out there. I've heard a few different models that seem viable to me. But what the fuck do I know.
- PonyBoy0
*crickets
wow... so - two folks who have been outspoken towards the left's idea of healthcare reform... mathinc and myself...
... seem to be the only two w/life-altering / life-changing heath issues... (so far)
... we're so heartless we don't even care about ourselves, tom. ;)
- haha that is kinda interesting! :)mathinc
- and you were both right wing to begin with...so maybe it just means people don't change ideology because of their medical bills?ukit
- medical bills?ukit
- actually my family almost went broke over treating my cancer several years ago. this reform is awesome.spifflink
- so go fuck yourself.spifflink
- spiff... nice to hear someone else speak up - I think you look back you'll see that neither tommy nor I are against reform...PonyBoy
- ... we both want the cost down... no doubt about that...
... and - I'm glad you're here with us. :)PonyBoy - don't go fuck yourself. ;)PonyBoy
- haha yes exactly. :)mathinc
- ukit0
tommy you are right to an extent I think - they will need to make changes in the future to control costs. Ironically, there were mechanisms in there to control costs - for instance, mandating that companies spend x amount on actual patient care rather than administrative costs - that were killed by conservative Democrats. This bill as is, is a first step - get everyone into the system, make companies responsible for providing care for everyone instead of using BS excuses to drop people. Any major change like this took many years and multiple tries to get right, but give Obama credit for getting this far unlike other presidents.
- If I go far am I really getting anywhere, if it's in the wrong direction?mathinc
- So universal coverage and ending denial of insurance isn't the issue, the only thing we should focus on is lowering costs?ukit
- costs? How? How do you propose to achieve that in the current system?ukit
- Mandates on the amount going towards patient care was one idea...but that was too left wing for a Dem Senateukit
- The public option was another...also too left wing.ukit
- Drug reimportation...neit... party is going to vote for that. We need some actual achievable ideas, not just grumblingukit
- Generic drug access..mathinc
- Tort reform...mathinc
- Examination surgical procedure and their payout structure..mathinc
- Systems to reduce possible malpractice and infections resulting from stays in the hospital..mathinc
- All of these would help reduce cost.mathinc
- Of those three, tort reform might be something a Republican Congress would tackle but not the other two...and I wonder how much that would really saveukit
- that would really save. You are assuming health care cos would take money saved from malpractice suits and spend it on patient careukit
- patient care. I don't think limiting malpractice liability is a very consumer friendly reformukit
- On the generics, I agree, but find me a Congress that would pass that, you'll be waiting a long time my friendukit
- No but if you reduced the amount of malpractice claims by reducing malpractice then yeah..mathinc
- That's not tort reform thoughukit
- omgitsacamera0
Living up to the Preamble of the Constitution...
...THAT'S SOCIALIST!
- (...promote the general Welfare...)omgitsacamera
- The heat in my house is also my general welfare, so are my groceries, my clothing. So yeah, pay for it. I don't want to.mathinc
- LOLMimio
- mathinc0
Ukit,
So you think it's a good thing to give the special interests what they want now, providing them with more money and more access.. and then you think that government will right that wrong down the road?
When?
Cause last I heard we're on track to more than double todays costs in another 10 years. Fix the costs and the access fixes itself.
- I seriously doubt lowering costs alone will fix access...ukit
- Why would an insurance co not do anything in their power to drop you when dropping you means higher profits?ukit
- I think you might have a skewed vision of insurance companies. Have you per chance listened to the Thismathinc
- American Life double feature on the healthcare industry?mathinc
- They've realized that they can't continue the way it is now either.mathinc
- "can't continue the way it is now" being the key point...of the options you listed above I didn't see anything that was either achievable or would really lower costsukit
- Check out 'More is Less' and 'Someone Else's Money'.. NPR's This American Life.mathinc
- achievable or would really lower costsukit
- haha really? You don't think 100,000 deaths each year from infections obtained inside hospitals costs lots of money?mathinc
- In pure healthcare savings it would reduce costs.. not to mention litigation and rises in insurance for the docs.mathinc
- Sure, but it costs money too. And no way are you getting that down to 0%.ukit
- Preventing diseases from spreading within a hospital has got to be incredibly tough, don't you think?ukit
- Of course not.. I didn't say reduce costs to zero, that's not reality. But cutting costs in half or making them even 70% ofmathinc
- what people are paying now would open up access to a hell of a lot of people.mathinc
- ********0
@PonyBoy
My spouse is very ill. We have always had insurance. This year my insurance has paid out approximately $300,000.00 in medical bills. We've had to pay about $15,000 out of pocket including 2009's premiums (covering four in my family).Thank goodness that our insurance company has held up their end of what they promised through our policy. I have been very satisfied with our current arrangement. That's all I have to say about this.
- Dr_Sparkleshine0
"Thank goodness that our insurance company has held up their end of what they promised through our policy."
Yes. Thank goodness. Plenty of people here who had insurance company say "fuck you". Happened to me. Declared personally bankruptcy in '03 thanks to medical costs. So fuck you and your "thank goodness". My current employer based health coverage got dropped in June because it "got to expensive" for our five man firm.
So, yeah PonyBoy, this hits very home. And there is your story.
That said, this bill sucks ass.
- My insurance company at the time Oxford fucked me. So fuck them.Dr_Sparkleshine
- I'm so glad that the guy who hasn't faced hardship is a hard as fuck dickhead republiturdDr_Sparkleshine
- His bills got paid. thank goodness, so fuck everyone else. Right?Dr_Sparkleshine
- Thank fucking goodness.Dr_Sparkleshine
- Or probably kissed ass with the insurance company.omgitsacamera
- PonyBoy0
My grandma just broke her neck about 3 weeks ago... she's also broken both her hips in the last 2 years and requires 100% around-the-clock LOVE from her family...
... I think I want all of you to fork over some cash - she's as much your responsibility as she is mine and my families (based on some of the logic in this thread)... if you don't send us some money - you're heartless assholes who don't care about me or my family... OR OLD PEOPLE...
... OH! My mom is pretty sick too... multiple health issues that I won't bore you with - you know... 'life and death stuff'... come on guys... 'pony up' a few bucks for my mom kitty - it's your duty as humans.
I have trouble wiping my ass from time to time because my back completely locks up on me - when I was a kid I fractured 6 vertebrae and spent 8+ months on my back and in body casts etc... I think some of you fuckers should come and wipe my ass for me... please - IT'S YOUR DUTY... or are you too heartless?
One major note I agree with: GET THE COST DOWN.
That's it... outside of that - the gov has no business BEING IN BUSINESS... regulate and make sure we've all got a fair starting point and options... but after that... back the fuck off.
*goes back to listening to heartless racist mike savage reruns
- the fact that you equate cash with medical care is the root of the problem.DrBombay
- it is a fact though... it is paid for one way or another - it will never be 'free'.PonyBoy
- Who is asking for it to be free, the strawman you have invented?DrBombay
- if you'd just come to that conclusion yourself - you'd see it's not right to expect others to 'take care of you'PonyBoy
- Who in this thread has said they want "free" healthcare? Stop inventing arguments.DrBombay
- haha... i guess I'm not allowed to read between the lines like you, dobs? Now would be an appropriate time for a jesus...PonyBoy
- ... joke... or some bash on some racist right-wing nazi... or perhaps you just want to call me a few names... your call.PonyBoy
- Or I could just wait for an argument that I am on the other end of, I don't recall asking for free health care.DrBombay
- But please, continue...DrBombay
- keep waiting.PonyBoy
- DrBombay0
Who asked for "free" healthcare? What bill is out there that is providing "free" healthcare? As far as I can tell there are none. So your outrage at the nonexistent proposal of "free" healthcare makes absolutely no sense. But again, please continue on your tirade against it.
- please define 'universal' if 'free' doesn't work for you - you know as well as I do that with this bill... a number of folks will...PonyBoy
- ... be footing the bill for others.PonyBoy
- try being intellectually honest for once and dump the emotions...PonyBoy
- we aren't getting universal healthcare either, that isn't in the bill.DrBombay
- Maybe you should do some reading about it.DrBombay
- If you have private health insurance you foot the bill for others.Mimio
- The whole insurance system is social for profit actually. Cost/Risk/Benefit is how member premiums are determined.Mimio
- To make more money they reduce risk and benefits and support highers costs.(obviously)
Mimio - i know it... and with a 'free market' system - the door is open for competitors to offer quality care at a reasonable...PonyBoy
- ... cost.
No matter what - it's going to have to be paid for... and no matter what - we all will need it.PonyBoy - Why do you suppose we have Medicare for older folks?Mimio
- couldn't tell you - but it's a system in debt which also needs reform. To be honest - I really wish there was more talkPonyBoy
- about personal health care savings accounts that we could all start paying into tax-free...PonyBoy
- ... so there's actually a real untouched 'kitty' of sorts - soemthing there when we need it.PonyBoy
- Plenty of high-deductable Health savings accounts exist. Doesn't change total cost really. Just premiums.Mimio
- PonyBoy0
btw, dobs... i love how you get called to task and put on the spot...
Do you then sit by and just wait for a word to be out of place (like me using the term 'free' in my note) that you then take it upon yourself to fucking harp on it like you've just discovered the cure for cancer...
weak
reply to the points being talked about - try and not bring up Fox news, try and stay away from some stupid talking point you heard on a right-wing talk show... see if you can go a page in the thread w/out cracking a joke about jesus and making fun of christianity etc... the challenge is yours... YOU CAN DO IT!
- Mimio0
Jesus belongs in the debate.