Moses was High
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- CALLES0
i heard peter was gay... judas soldout and told me
- gramme0
neverblink,
(1)
My only question is: If a Christian does good, only for the Glory of his God. Why should there have to be a reward for the Christian? Doesn't that ultimatly boil down to the Christian doing it for the reward / his own ego.I should elaborate that doing things for God's glory, and because he requires it, does not just glorify God, but it benefits humanity as well. For example, we are called to love our neighbors, 'neighbor' being anyone and everyone, even people we can't stand. I do good because I am grateful for being forgiven of my sins. It's not about God. It was God's decision, because he loves us so much, to never be apart from us, to live in glory with him...if we own him as savior. Dying to myself, to my own desires, for the sake of God's kingdom, is an act of selflessness...especially because much is promised, but not yet seen. It's an act of faith. We don't need the reward per se, God simply does not want to be apart from us. And I for one will gladly take the reward of eternal life. It does not make me selfish, especially because in order to get into heaven, I must truly believe that I am completely beyond repair save through Him. It's the ultimate admission of weakness, and it cannot happen if the Holy Spirit does not open one's eyes. I hope that answers your question, even if it may not satisfy you.
(2)
I think the whole concept of a 'Kingdom of Heavens' is a fairytale to give people hope who can not be satisfied by the fact that they lived their lives only for the 'Glory of God' and ultimatly to establish 'God's Kingdom' right here on earth.—The Kingdom of heaven is in the here and now. It is in construction, so to speak. God uses us as his builders and designers. The full glory of it will come when this universe is remade and perfected.
(3)
I think you are truly devoted if you don't need the reward at the end of the struggle. If you truly believe you are 'fighting for a good cause' the notion that you might have helped your ideals become reality should be enough reward for you.—Can you point me toward someone who does not work toward some reward? We die without hope. We hope in a resolution, a reward, of some kind, regardless of race or creed. I am rewarded when I see the cause of Christ advanced – i.e., when people see God's nature in me because of the love I show them. That is how people see the nature of God – in his followers, through the power of the Holy Spirit.
(4)
btw. This applies to all religions.—There is no other religion that involves grace. All other religions require the believer to bring some sort of merit to the table, to pile up good works to win God's favor. Christianity is about understanding that we have nothing to bring to the table, nothing that can raise our status in God's eyes. All our good deeds are useless to him, since we are incapable of avoiding sin entirely. That's why we need a substitute to take our place.
- (1) I meant it IS about God, what He did, but what I meant is that I act out of gratitude for what happened in the past...gramme
- ...and have faith in what will happen in the future.gramme
- So if there was no Heaven / no consequence, you would still 'do good'?neverblink
- Mimio0
The only explanation for wandering around the desert for 40 years is to traverse a distance most people could make in 25-30 days is drug use.
- neverblink0
I DEMAND AN ANWSER!!!!!!
I've asked kindly three times but you Christians keep ignoring me.
originally posted here: http://www.qbn.com/topics/544452…---------------------------
Doing good for the sake of God is as selfless as it gets, and is thus the greatest thing a person can do.
- grammeMy only question is: If a Christian does good, only for the Glory of his God. Why should there have to be a reward for the Christian? Doesn't that ultimatly boil down to the Christian doing it for the reward / his own ego.
I think the whole concept of a 'Kingdom of Heavens' is a fairytale to give people hope who can not be satisfied by the fact that they lived their lives only for the 'Glory of God' and ultimatly to establish 'God's Kingdom' right here on earth.
I think you are truly devoted if you don't need the reward at the end of the struggle. If you truly believe you are 'fighting for a good cause' the notion that you might have helped your ideals become reality should be enough reward for you.
btw. This applies to all religions.
--------------------
I would like to hear a Christian say: "Heaven? nahh.. give my place to a sinner."
- sorry saw you posted an anwser in the meantimeneverblink
- My theory is that they really don't believe any of this is true.Mimio
- its fairly simple, dumbass. If everyone is doing good, society will work alot better.********
- nice theory, doesn't apply to me.gramme
- (@ Mimio)gramme
- jonatne0
Calles,
I'm glad you said all of that.
I would have never taken the time to write that but it's pretty much on point with what I'm thinking.
- gramme0
neverblink,
We are all sinners. I am a sinner. That's why I need salvation. Thankfully it was a once-and-for-all act.
- mrdobolina0
I'm not a sinner.
- flashbender0
^ This is the fundamental flaw of the Christian church. Since you exist you are impure and flawed. Very positive and uplifting.
- ^ = gramme's comment
flashbender - as opposed to being the product of a series of lucky accidents?ender79
- ^ = gramme's comment
- gramme0
...He's been there since the beginning: see general revelation, regardless of what you believe about human history and its span.
Another thought about heaven: the pleasures this earth promises are not enough for me. People are too easily pleased, and they are in denial about what brings true happiness. I love many things about life on earth, but ultimately I want, and think I was built, for something better. I don't want good, I don't want better, I want best. Who doesn't? We just look for it in the wrong places. We think we can save ourselves, and we die trying.
- TheBlueOne0
"The full glory of it will come when this universe is remade and perfected."
Again. I am not born a "sinner", thank you, but I can do without your little prima facie guilt trip mentality. Took me years to outgrow the crap that was shoved down my throat as a child. And it's my immutable belief that the universe is perfect just as is, doesn't need "perfecting or "remaking".
"Christianity is about understanding that we have nothing to bring to the table, nothing that can raise our status in God's eyes."
Ah, again on the "we're not worthy" meme. Yup. Sure, sounds like the perfect mindset if you're an empire or a feudal lord to instill in your peasants and various functionaries. Deny all responsibility in yourself, hand it all over to some "savior". Heck, give 'em all sorts of comic book myth mumbo jumbo to argue over, keep it interesting.
I personally favor a religion or spiritual belief that gives me the reigns, not tries to absolve me of responsibility. And I think all this modern american-based christian interpretation of the Old Testament is really shallow, light weight and real, real weak...you use this tremendous body of history and deep spiritual thought and evolution to justify your own little viewpoint, to put your beliefs at the epicenter of it all. Of course the jews disagree with you, but that's ok, you use the jews and their history to justify yourselves and your self importance as well.
- ...that gives me the reins...
=
self-worship. Youre the boss. You are God.gramme
- ...that gives me the reins...
- ********0
Gramme - honestly, many thanks for taking the time to answer my points, I appreciate it.
"Believing in Him means, as I stated above, that one must believe Christ is the son of God, that he came to save us, that he was capable of saving us from ourselves and from damnation, that he died, descended to hell, was raised to life, and ascended to heaven"And if I don't/cannot bring myself to believe that, if indeed I think it's a ridiculously complex and convoluted thing that doesnt have the slightest ring of truth or sense to it, and YET I continue to lead as good a life as I can, I'll end up in this eternal suffering ??
Well that's not really very nice, is it ?
As I said, this seems to be a patch to the world, as if God created the world, and created man and put him in it, but then realised the freewill that man has sometimes lead to ungodly misery, suffering and lack of love, and so the only scheme he could come up with to help people was not : permitting people to have free will, but then when they died enacting a thorough review and revelation of what exactly they had done wrong, and helping them realise this before they passed into heaven, as would be the simplest, most logical, most reasonable thing; no - he incarnates as a human, demonstrates this by defeating the earthly illusion of death, does nice things, is sacrificed mortally, and hopes this will be some kind of 'lesson' to people to generally be kinder to each other ?
Sorry, its kinda crap, really. Im one person with a small brain, and I know for a fact thats not what I would do.
And all these people that had no chance of getting to heaven, ie those people born in the 100,000 years before this sudden realisation that there was a design flaw in the whole human/freewill scenario - thats just fricking mean, really -
As I say, the whole story doesnt ADD anything to idea of there being a god, of 'divinely' ordained morality (which I have despite there being no God), or how to live a good life and achieve a place in heaven..
What if you get to the pearly gates and he says 'no. You didnt believe this frankly unlikely story about how I incarnated. Unless you say you did, it's downstairs with you." ?
"Well fuck that,", Id say - thats just kinda weird and mean. "I may have been an atheist, and heck - I was wrong - Honestly I'm thrilled to bits you do exist (although I would have preferred at least a modicum of total privacy in my own thoughts), but nonetheless, here we are, you're great, there is a life after death, I get it now...I just don't really agree with these conditions that you've put upon my entering heaven, I dont really think that's something an ultimately flawless loving creator would do, Im sorry. You'd know if I was just pretending to agree with the story, but I'm not going to. If you can just show me the stairs down to the fiery pit, Im afraid I'll have to go there if I'm not to dishonor you by being a total fraud. Sorry it didnt work out."
And that would be that.- Stop being rational we're talking about mythology and religion.Mimio
- bah....too much observation and drawing rational conclusions for me. Darn book-lernin'. And eyes.********
- Rationality drives one to embrace a theistic worldview. It is irrational to...teleos
- believe that chance + necessity produced morality and consciousness.teleos
- mrdobolina0
haha, wow. noone born before christ is in heaven... never thought about it like that.
- What? no Moses is heaven? I was looking forward to talking in "smoke signals" with him.Mimio
- God was still building his cloud before he kicked out Baby Hezeus. Too many parties from what I heard.czawada
- puffin on a cloudmrdobolina
- ********0
ah no, they are apprantly - they just had to wait around, then choose to believe/patch-in the 'MS Hotfix 36AD' module, then they were in.
- hahahmrdobolina
- No man left behind. No divine revelation to women either.Mimio
- neverblink0
(1)(a)
I should elaborate that doing things for God's glory, and because he requires it, does not just glorify God, but it benefits humanity as well. For example, we are called to love our neighbors, 'neighbor' being anyone and everyone, even people we can't stand.This is the 'Golden Rule' posted a couple of pages back. Basicly what you are saying is that we should make living here Heaven on eart - I think anyone can agree with that.
(b)
I do good because I am grateful for being forgiven of my sins. [...] We don't need the reward per se, God simply does not want to be apart from us.So, would you say you would do 'good' even if you knew there was no Heaven? No eternal life? This might be a bit of an unfair question - since you believe there is - and I am asking you how you would act if you wouldn't believe. But would you find a person, who would not believe in any kind of reward but still did anything in his power to aid his fellow humans, more nobel than someone who knew there would be a reward waiting?
(2)
—The Kingdom of heaven is in the here and now. [...]Well actually that's why I made a distinction between 'Kingdom of Heavens' and 'God's Kingdom on Earth'. The way I see it we are struggling to achieve paradise (God's Kingdom on Earth) here on earth. When we die we are freed from that struggle, you say they go to (the Kingdom of) Heaven(s). See above comment about reward.
(3)
—Can you point me toward someone who does not work toward some reward?No I cannot. I think this is because we need to have some 'reason' why we do things. A reasoning behind what is considered doing good - other than 'doing good' itself. Because if there is no reason, why should we do good? That would end in total chaos (a so called 'Hell on earth').
(4)
—There is no other religion that involves grace. All other religions require the believer to bring some sort of merit to the table, to pile up good works to win God's favor. Christianity is about understanding that we have nothing to bring to the table, nothing that can raise our status in God's eyes. All our good deeds are useless to him, since we are incapable of avoiding sin entirely. That's why we need a substitute to take our place.If this is true, everybody goes to Heaven, right? Everybody sins, and in the eyes of God we are all equal. "All our good deeds are useless to him". --- The thing Christians bring to the table is their 'faith'. They make a deal with themselves instead of with their God. They accept the doctrine of the religion as the 'reason' (see above) in their life.
btw. thank you for taking the time to anwser my previous question so extensively.
- You're numbering/list system here kicks ass!!!TheBlueOne
- gramme0
"Since you exist you are impure and flawed. Very positive and uplifting."
—Your effect is correct, your cause is mistaken. Mere existence does not make us flawed. Sinful nature, handed down from one generation to the next, causes us to be flawed. It goes all the way back to Adam. Adam opened the floodgates for evil to enter the world (evil being more the twisting of truth than an invention per se). We reap the results.
The positive, extremely uplifting news is that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. We did not earn his good favor, he gave it freely, purely out of love and grace.
- Nicely put!teleos
- This is fast approaching Scientology. Time to clear some Empaths!duckofrubber
- czawada0
OK, I'm sold on this shit.
Where so I sign up? I want to drink blood and eat that bearded homeboy's body.
- ********0
you done preaching?
- ********0
- Aw..manMimio
- Belinda made a sinner out of me in the 80's.TheBlueOne