intelligent design
- Started
- Last post
- 383 Responses
- deep_throat0
discipler - the mathematics is complex, yes, but it demonstrates PRINCIPLES, that can be applied to the Universe.
What i am talking about how principally speaking matter can. I was trying to open your closed my to the infinite possibilities in this universe in which this thing that we subjectively call life can emerge out of the complexity of the processes of the universe.
you with your talk of 2nd law and nothing can come of nothing talk, was talk conceptually, abstractly. This is what i was addressing.
Now if you want to change the subject and speak specifically about the cell as we know it, that is a different matter.
But as an idea complex systems can emerge from simple universel laws, that exhibits what we migh call life, and for this we use abstract models where the rules of the universe are completely known to us and we programmed them.
That was my point. And you've gone and done your merry little dance as always talking about "yes but science has looked into cells and they dont seem to bla bla"
thats a difference matter.
so ok, now we are in agreement, second law of thermodynamics absolutely does not preclude evolution, and simplicitiy can self-organise into complexity.
- discipler0
and while i'm gone, ponder:
1. How dimorphic sexuality could have possibly arisen under darwinian mechanisms.
2. How human consciousness with all of it's metaphysical realities could have "emerged" under darwinian mechanisms.
3. How millions of the most significant body plans appear suddenly in the Cambrian fossil record without even a smidgen of the time required to evolve. (Exotic "punctuated equilibrium" notions which are laughable by most legit biologists are not allowed).
4. How minutely fine tuned the physical laws of our planet and our position of the solar system, to support life, could have arisen without intelligence.
5. How the generational numbers don't add up since the last alleged human ancestor. (no time for evolution).
6. How digitally coded information could have been stamped into the core of every cell when we only see information as the product of intelligence.
There's more, but that should get you started.
- discipler0
has anyone here even mentioned the the 2nd law of thermodynamics in this thread, kuz???
I'm afraid you are speaking out the proverbial booty at this point.
ta ta
- deep_throat0
no discipler, i'm mentioning it. Because i'm trying to point out a simple model to you.
Your impossibilty to understand that computer models reflect ideas of what life is and how it can come about and become infinitley complex shows definiciney in your imagination.
YOU were talking about your ideas of 2nd laws of thermodyanmics becaouse YOU (if you read back what you said) were talking about the transferrence of infromation
I proved to you with a very simple computer model, that information can be transferred by self-organisin mechanisms, as demonstrated by the life game.
That was the one theory of yours i was attacking and debunking.
You then, ofcourse, changed the topic to "what scientists are now observing".
You failed ot see my point delieberatly.
- deep_throat0
anyway, that's where the second law of thermodynamics comes in, because you were rehashing hashing the 2nd law argument by talking about "infornation" in DNA, and how complexity can just occur without anyone designing complexity.
But i hold that Artificial Life models show us that his can happen.
After not being able to address this you started talking about how earth is finally balanced to accomdate life, which is true. But that still doesn' preclude complex systems, growing out of simplicitiy of their own accord obeying simple rules.
- deep_throat0
fcuk! talking to my self.
umm, you're a bitch!
- ukit0
c'mon man nothing in that list even troubled me slightly. Of course we don't know everything about the entire history of the world. That doesn't mean evolution isn't real. How did Noah fit 60 million animals on one boat for forty days, since you apparently believe that happened?
- ********0
Mathmateical abstractions:
A) Got sailors across oceans
B) Got man to the moon
C) Allow this really cool thing called the internet to work
D) Allow really tall buildings to be um really tallAmong a host of other cool useful and fascinating uses of mathmatical abstractions..
Why suddenly when "mathmatical abstractions" apply to biological theories you start claiming that it's "just math" without real proof?
Discipler you are a silly duck...
- deep_throat0
That doesn't mean evolution isn't real. How did Noah fit 60 million animals on one boat for forty days, since you apparently believe that happened?
ukit
(Sep 30 05, 14:02)ukit, discpler alrady kinda conceded evolution is a possibility beacuse he said ID does not preclude the fact that life was meant to unfold a certain way. Ie evolve a certain way.
- deep_throat0
if you're interested check dis
"Artificial Life is a field of scientific study that attempts to model living biological systems through complex algorithms. Scientists use these models to test and experiment with a multitude of factors on the behavior of the systems."
- ********0
deep-throught - so far I'm on your team here, but in your last response were you implying that evolution by it's nature has a predictable path? That it has a direction? "evolve a certain way"?
If so I think you're off the mark - but I think I'm misunderstanding you...
- deep_throat0
no, i was just commenting on my argument with discipler. who starts of ID theory then goes further and further against a wall and then he ended up saying that ID believe God intended life to evolve a certain way. He was being highly contradictory.
- ukit0
Thw whole thing is really laughable. I think what it comes down to is if you were raised a certain way, i.e., with Christianity drilled into your brain, it becomes impossible to give up those beliefs when you reach adulthood. No matter how much evidence to the contrary is staring you in the face.
- ********0
ukkit - I don't think so - this has to do with personal insecurities. Even the Catholic Church conceded evolution years back..(They might be going back on that soon though..who knows with these guys..)
Look either you need to believe in a supreme being who has it all mapped out or you don't. Or at least you need to believe that your privy to how said supreme being is thinking, and hence somehow important in the grand scheme of things.
I'm comfortable knowing that maybe there is no great master pklan and we just gotta give our own meaning to things as we go along..but that's just me..not any better or worse...but I don't need someone else telling me I'm wrong because you know Big daddy said it is...
- ukit0
Dunno - I'm sure personal insecurity plays a part but I think it is really hard to escape from your past. If you are brought up a certain way, let's face it, you will have strong biases about this kind of stuff. I think people like Discipler go in with a preconceived notion of what they want the answer to be and argue backwards from that, which is really, well, illogical.
- ********0
..or well, Discipler might really just hav efaith in it, which is fine. If you want to believe in an INtelligent Designer, I'm all for it. Adds or subtracts nothing to your value as a fellow human being. If it makes him happy, gives him meaning, enriches his life, then I say Rock on...it's just that like so many ID people they just a) try to enforce there views on others b) totally screw up the fundamentals of science and the advances in Western thinking to try and "prove" that they're right.
But then again it's been going on for millenia, why should it stop now...
The funny thing is that the forces of reason, logic and science are really the underdogs - we've only really lived in a "rational" world for a few centuries, if even that. The vast majority of mankinds existence on this planet has been driven by religious and magical thinking and practices..and it's those ideas which threaten our very existence ina modern, technological world if allowed free reign. (In measured doses they provide good things for the human spirit)
- algorithm0
well put TIck
- ukit0
Yeah it's doesn't bother me that people belive all kinds of stuff. I mean there are people in this world that believe in everything from sever-armed goddesses to space aliens. But when peoplke with an agenda try to push teaching kids this shit in schools like it's science...well, let's just see what happens with the case that's in court now.
- veraicon0
Tick said:
__________For our human existence/brains this workks. On a quantum level time might not even have a direction, and some physicists are postulating (and seeking proof) that time doesn't even exist...so if in fact time isn't linear there is no nedd for a "first causer"
my answer to this:
ha ha ha ha ha ha. and i suppose you are sooo beyond human that you got your brain around this bend, even though scientists hardly even know enough about the human brain?
pleeeeeassssse.
really, all i ever stated was that since we will never know, as humans ( tick if far beyond that), how the universe really came to be we will always have the same damn agrument.
forever scientists will TRY to prove how the first molecules came to be and forever there will be doubt because of the lack of proof. which leads us to this thread and this ever lasting argument...
that's it. there is nothing to even debate here. science is based upon theories... some become facts, others don't. some that are thought to be fact are later proven to be wrong. that's it.
i personally don't believe most humans...as they think they know too much.
so:
again, some believe there is once science and darwin and evolution and that's it.
others believe that science makes lots of mistakes and has not and never will dig up what really makes this universe tick.
yet others believe that there is a GOD that created all of this.
the three will never see eye to eye and never have.... so why ever talk about it???
so i guess there IS A NEED for the so called "first causer" , as tick puts, for the small mind of human beings since this thread exists.
xo
- ukit0
All Tick was saying is that there are other possible explanations for the first cause or whatever you want to call it than some magical deity floating up in the sky. And people CAN get their brains around these concepts. Pick up a modern physics book and you will learn some pretty amazing things that are currently being considered. I'm sorry if real insights into the nature of reality based on empirical evidence and scientific reasoning aren't interesting to you.
And why talk about it? Because in case you haven't noticed there's a concerted movement by conservatives under way to try to force feed this intelligent design shit to our kids in school. Or at least move things in that direction...and that, for me, at least , is pretty disturbing.