religion
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- Morning_star0
Ukit2 -
It's not a matter of editing the footage to serve your own agenda, FFS the news channels do it constantly. It's the ridicule and criticism Dawkins makes of opponents that do exactly the same.
Dawkins chooses to stick to a Materialist doctorine regardless of evidence that suggests otherwise (this is covered in the Science thread if i remember correctly). As Set said, Dawkins is just at the other end of a fundamentalist spectrum.- evidence that suggests otherwise?monospaced
- in my Opinion of extreme Materialist world view is that its another form of arrogance. you know same kind of arroganceyurimon
- that extreme Christianity displayed toward the indians or native cultures around the world.yurimon
- except materialism is steeped in evidence, while christianity is notmonospaced
- There is always a background that goes deeper in most ideas in their historic progressions.yurimon
- Mainstream ideas seem to be more political manipulation based. includes religion and science.yurimon
- not as deep as a mythical god, unfortunately, and even if that's what you believe, it's unreasonablemonospaced
- The idea of non-Materialist worldview doesn't even make senseukit2
- Why the need for two categories of stuff? Even if we discover alternate dimensions or something, it would still be materalistukit2
- part of material existenceukit2
- ones again mono you bypass the attempt to understand core concepts behind the veil of what is given to mass consumptionyurimon
- I bypass the attempt at making assumptions based on ancient mythsmonospaced
- Considering that some myths are reworded in science. like the concept of the etheryurimon
- are you assuming with ignorance that ancient ideas are shallow and primitive? have no debth? have you seen ancient geometry, math that built the pyramids?yurimon
- the math that built the pyramids?yurimon
- and you're cherry picking this historical ideas to match your current world view. how many "ancient truths" are just bullshit?hereswhatidid
- total bullshit?hereswhatidid
- No, I think its a valid curiosity.
I for one really have no world view. I'm an open book. dont mind challenging or changing my mindyurimon - mind. Truth is truth exist independent from belief. but its good when one can be aligned with the truth.yurimon
- in some way its ironic that science is looking for truth outside. when ancient idea of truth is from withinyurimon
- uhhh, ancient math isn't ancient myth, how can yo ufucking compare them?monospaced
- ukit20
Maybe if you can give an example of what you're talking about? It looks to me like Richard Dawkins put out the full interviews himself, so I don't think he's hiding anything.
The worst thing you can accuse Dawkins of is being mean. But that doesn't mean he's "just as bad" as psychic healers and astrologers.
- people get butt hurt when reason and logic threaten their faithmonospaced
- logic is faith when you base logic on fallaciesyurimon
- Words are gibberish when you don't base them on thinkingukit2
- best summary of yuri yet, ukithereswhatidid
- that's not true, logic never changesmonospaced
- Logic can be false if its based on a false premise...yurimon
- You are saying your thinking is infallible or error free and you have mastered the universe?yurimon
- mono hasn't said anything even close to thathereswhatidid
- Does your logic calculate the fact that your mind has 2 hemispheres? intuition and logic.yurimon
- or is it better to ignore one side and imbalance your self to an extreme point of view.yurimon
- So I have a question. how far can logic alone can take you toward complete understanding the universe?yurimon
- logic is a fucking process, not a dogma, just like science... why can you NEVER understand that?monospaced
- CONCLUSIONS can be false with fallacies (e.g. religion), but logic is just logic regardlessmonospaced
- also, logic is the only way to the truth if you want to ignore fallaciesmonospaced
- to answer your question: logic will take us all the way to understanding, it's the only reasonable waymonospaced
- better than giving up and saying, "I'm too stupid to figure it out, therefore God."monospaced
- Your still making assumptions that the logic you bestow has no errors or fallacies..yurimon
- 'reyurimon
- am I? please be more specificmonospaced
- lol, yuri being specifichereswhatidid
- Morning_star0
Examples are largely useless in this situation because those I could mention have no explanation either Materialist or Spiritual. However, as a non spiritual example, the nature of consciousness is beyond explanation at the moment, we understand the mechanic but we don't understand the nature of a memory.
There are some fascinating field theories put forward by the likes of Rupert Sheldrake. They are by no means infallible but are due consideration even though they dismiss a purely materialist universe.
Richard Dawkins and others group all of the crazy fuckers together with those with a more considered scientific approach - it's just not that black and white. Whilst the dogma and doctrine of religion and spirituality are, to me, the poison running through all the abhorrent shit done in the name of god. When this is removed, however, the metaphysical becomes something to be considered.- paging.. mr. mono....yurimon
- the nature of consciousness is not beyond explanation, and if you don't understand this then we can't really continuemonospaced
- you have to have a stronger understanding of scientific progress and findings to talk about thismonospaced
- ********0
- ukit20
The thing I don't understand is that with all that weird stuff that does fall under the banner of legitimate science, why people would focus on theories that have never been tested and have nothing supporting them. Maybe it's a product of the internet age where the craziest theories automatically rise to the top.
As far as material vs non material goes, why the need for a second category? Even if psychic powers were real, even if there are extra dimension or it turns out we are all living in a giant hologram or a computer simulation or something, it would still be material reality wouldn't it? Dark matter, black holes etc is still material. No one can really define what "non-material" is.
- is there a certificate or stamp of approval of legitimate science?yurimon
- the guy who invented the law of thermodynamics was dismissed by legitimate science it was 10 years before it took hold as legitimate.yurimon
- It might be material but its called non material because we cant pinpoint essence of consciousness. even by mystic viewsyurimon
- viewsyurimon
- certificate of approval = has actually been tested and peer reviewedukit2
- As opposed to just some random bullshit someone came up with that sounds coolukit2
- Peer review doesnt mean much. People will do anything to keep $ flowing, even if their theories are obsoleteyurimon
- what would happen to all those people with vested careers supported by certain theories?,yurimon
- you sure love broad, sweeping generalizations yuriscarabin
- usually it takes 10-15 years for new science to take hold and become normal in the public mindyurimon
- science has been wildy, unfathomably successful in bringing your life to where it is today. religion has done basically nothing for youscarabin
- nothing for you except make you sound like a frightened shut-inscarabin
- theory of thermodynamics is specific and took 10 years before excepted..people thought it was crazyyurimon
- I like science. I dont argue against it. I know its limitations and where its corrupted..yurimon
- so does everyone else. you can quit harping about it nowscarabin
- you've been tossing the baby out with the bathwater for over a year nowscarabin
- my gripe is with those who make science as the ultimate reality. same with those who are extremist in religionyurimon
- and there is religion for the masses and there is core metaphysical and mystic concepts in front of you that the public cant seeyurimon
- public cant see. because of the arrogance. mind you religion is a control system and science can be also.yurimon
- No one except Yuri see it! He's the chosen one! Just like the voice In my head kept telling me.pango
- see thread above, user morning_star. rinse and repeat and there people who see it just not the profane...yurimon
- Morning_star0
I think one of the issues with scientific proof is the rigid and established processes that have to be adhered to. 'Science' requires that you replicate results in a lab with established 'material' techniques with a peer reviewed paper, otherwise your claim has no scientific value and can be labeled woo woo without consideration. This approach seems backwards to me, it essentially claims that all of the laws of the universe are known and unless your theory is provable using those laws then you're talking shit. This approach does not foster the progression of scientific understanding.
- This isn't true at all and explains a lot about your unique perspective on the matter.monospaced
- Care to expand?Morning_star
- So you're problem with scientific proofs is that they are scientific proofs, basically.hereswhatidid
- Not enough just random nonsense being accepted as valid without any evidence to support.hereswhatidid
- your assumptions about how the scientific process works is fundamentally flawed, that's allmonospaced
- aka, there's more than just lab tests... you must know thismonospaced
- Morning_star0
"So you're problem with scientific proofs is that they are scientific proofs, basically." - hereswhatidid
No, not really. My issue is with the dogmatic approach to the definition of what constitutes scientific proof. The method by which something is proved is cemented in a materialist universe and subsequently, unless these limited boxes are ticked results are dismissed.
You only need look at the rules for successfully claiming James Randi's prize and you'll see an example of the issue i have. He says that if you can't recreate the phenomenon under lab conditions set by him, no prize. Rather than encouraging the expansion of scientific knowledge and exploration, and discovering new ways to gather and record meaningful results the rules are rigid and unchanging. Rather like the church in the times of Galileo.- because no evidence, whatsoever, has EVER been found for something existing outside the material worldmonospaced
- you go on and on how science is limited to material reality as if you believe that there is something supernaturalmonospaced
- and that science can't explain these immaterial phenomena, which nobody can show existmonospaced
- The placebo effect.Morning_star
- placebo effect just show's the brain's larger role in the body's health and physiologymonospaced
- it is not, and never should be, attributed to supernatural happenings... sounds stupid to even implymonospaced
- 'The brains larger role in health and physiology' That's very vague and meaningless could you elaborate.Morning_star
- It's not vague!!! The brain is where natural pain-killers, hormones, and most body chemicals are made and distributedmonospaced
- made and distributed. It is a HUGE part of our health. It regulates just about everything, and even mood affects it.monospaced
- laughing/sex/happy releases happy chemicals, and these can affect the physiologymonospaced
- are you really this uninformed are or you just playing stupid to fuck with me? because you sound really naivemonospaced
- The placebo is (usually) a pill with NO medical physical benefits to the body, it's a trick. Yet, it has a measurable physical results. Are you suggesting that belief can have a measurable physical effect?Morning_star
- physical results. Are you suggesting that belief can have a measurable physical effect?Morning_star
- You gotta be trolling, morning. No one is this dense.hereswhatidid
- Please point out where i'm going wrong. Seriously.Morning_star
- Assuming that the placebo effect is evidence of the supernatural would be a start.hereswhatidid
- I'm not assuming anything, neither should you. What I would like is a brief explanation as to why in the absence of an active drug people show observable physical change to a condition, whether it's a blind test or not.Morning_star
- active drug people show observable physical change to a condition, whether it's a blind test or not.Morning_star
- FIRST of all, the placebo effect isn't a guarantee. It is a way of showing how mental states can affect physiology.monospaced
- If I lock you in a room and say you will be murdered in 10 minutes, your body will have a reaction, you agree?hereswhatidid
- You will experience physical side effects that have no direct external source. This is not magic.hereswhatidid
- Adrenaline is a perfect example. External stimuli causes brain to dump this into your bloodstreammonospaced
- And things as simple as good sleep and low stress can reduce heart problemsmonospaced
- Laughter causes the brain to release dopamines, and happiness is a result, as well as other healingmonospaced
- FINALLY, if you think the placebo effect is supernatural, what does that say about different belief systems?monospaced
- holy shit, the more I think about it the more retarded it is that bible-thumpers use placebo affect to discount sciencemonospaced
- Well done. Arrogance, assumptions and an inability to articulate your position.Morning_star
- I articulated my position perfectly, with not a hint of assumptionmonospaced
- the arrogance is because I'm rightmonospaced
- You assumed I am a bible thumper, you haven't defend your position on placebo from a materialist perspective and your dismissal of anything that challenges a wholly material universe is faith based. So cut the Playground bitchin and debate like an adult.Morning_star
- and your dismissal of anything that challenges a wholly material universe is faith based. So cut the Playground bitchin and debate like an adult.Morning_star
- debate like an adult.Morning_star
- ok, what is your point bringing up the placebo... what are you implying exactly?monospaced
- what, that since YOU can't comprehend how it works that it's beyond science? please...monospaced
- and since this is the religious thread... are you fucking implying it's fucking JESUS in the sugar pills?monospaced
- you'[ve got to be out of your fucking mind to use the placebo effect as some kind of way to reason for god existingmonospaced
- fucking bonkersmonospaced
- Again, you are assuming that A) I'm Christian and I believe in god and B) the Placebo Effect is perfectly understood and explainable - unless you know different?Morning_star
- understood and explainable - unless you know different of course. If it's difficult for you to accept this then maybe you should take your closed mind and argue elsewhere cause this is boring me now.Morning_star
- maybe we should stop this particular thread.Morning_star
- or maybe you should just stop posting in it and leave it up to folks with a grain of sensescarabin
- If someone, anyone, could point out where my lack of sense fails the please, I'd welcome the education, truly. BUT all I seem to get is a sidestepping of the point and an arrogance worthy of the an organised religion. Show me the facts unless, as I suspect your 'wisdom' is surface level assumption.Morning_star
- seem to get is a sidestepping of the point and an arrogance worthy of the an organised religion. Show me the facts unless, as I suspect your 'wisdom' is surface level assumption.Morning_star
- unless, as I suspect your 'wisdom' is surface level assumption.Morning_star
- yurimon0
So no evidence means?
1) No ability to conceive any historic, spiritual experience or higher thinking because my consciousness level is at par with my left brain imbalance.
2) Even though something is experienced and no test exist to pinpoint it, = doesn't exist.
3) Anomalies in nature are lab equipment failures
- Do you talk like this to people all the time?hereswhatidid
- only to you babyyurimon
- So if someone wrote a lied about spiritual experience and that writing survived time for centuries. It would be considered as fact?pango
- As fact?pango
- moldero0
Took a whole lotta tryin', Just to get up that hill.
Now we're up in the big leagues, Gettin' our turn at bat.
As long as we live, it's you and me baby, There ain't nothin wrong with that.
- ********0
never will there be a white messiah tell the uncle tom the great news...also dick gregory made a great point that uncle toms are shapeshifters..sooo...don't be angry
- caseyz0
Ok , a quick atheist question without doing any googling.
Do atheist go see scary movies, or are they just immediately boring to them, seeing as ghost and deamons are outside of their scientific rational? Well... I guess the mainstream science at least.
- holy...shit...monospaced
- so... much... stupidmonospaced
- do christians go see scary movies because they believe in demons and ghosts, and shun scientific rationale?monospaced
- ...well, main stream science at least.monospaced
- we dont watch star wars either because that shit is fakemoldero
- As I expected so far..caseyz
- Its a stupid question, yes, but that is the point. All of these assumption in this thread take either sides view to the extremecaseyz
- Crazy how much hate is in this thread!caseyz
- except one is based on reason and rationale, and the other a bunch of ancient mythsmonospaced
- LOL @ this post and notes.pango
- Is the ether a myth? or science took a religious belief and called dark matter?yurimon
- Is natures mathematical proportions myth? because math was the basis of some ancient religions..yurimon
- Wtf... Would the thumpers go see a movie about evolution?caseyz
- Sure why not.pango
- Nobody is thumping if you pay attention nothing about jesus here. look the post below Vyurimon
- Nobody is thumping if you pay attention nothing about jesus here. look the post below Vyurimon
- Jesus cuts my grass, 4 realzmoldero
- we go see fictional movies because they're entertaining. that's way fucking different than basing your entire belief system on something fictional. i can't fucking fathom what kind of point you think you're trying to make herescarabin
- on something fictional. i can't fucking fathom what kind of point you think you're trying to make herescarabin
- I guess the point was that everyone suspends belief for entertainment, ffs everyone is so defensive in herecaseyz
- it is the topic of religion... how could you expect less? wars been raised on this matter.pango
- yurimon0
Recommend read, alot of the ideas come out of religious philosophy. the beginning of the book hints at few greek math cults and start of with religion as the foundation in asking the questions... so in YO face!
- You wanna pay for me? Cuz no way I'm paying for that stuff. Probably gonna collect dust.pango
- ********0
Jesus was an alien human hybrid hence the special powers.
Mary was abducted hence the immaculate conception.
The star that guided the three wise men was a UFO, stars don't move.
- ukit20
i like this...twist on young Earth creationism
