Scottish independence
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- Wolfboy0
This is my position on the independence and I'm an Northern English person but I prefer to think of myself as British and maybe that's why I've chosen to live in London (a bit more multicultural down here and all that).
My non-rational heart says the Union should stand. We're an island nation with many different places of local character all within a small area - for example I've lived for three years in Cornwall and I would say there is as much difference between the Cornish and the rest of the UK as there is between Scotland and the rest. I love the range of places and people in these islands and culturally it'll be a sadder place for losing some of them. I know Scotland is still there but it will be a foreign country and there'll be all the hassles of visiting any other country with a real border and different currency. Not a massive issue I guess, but again, we're not talking rationally are we?
From a rational point of view, I just don't see the positives of independence for anyone. I can't believe anyone trusts a word that comes out of Salmond’s mouth, he has no answers on any of the truly important questions. Currency, Europe; he just continually sidesteps the issues.
The risks are just too great - the Yes campaign want to keep a Sterling union and every political party down here says they can’t. But Salmond insists the UK will just cave in on this. Why would they cave in? Because he’s threatening not to take a fair share of the national debt with Scotland and I’m sure this would happen. But that has a knock on effect for the next point, the EU.
Salmond has already said Scotland would just stay in the EU like it is an automatic thing, but it’s far from automatic. For a start they’d have to wait for an official window for entry, just like every other Eastern European country who have entered over the past decade. Then every EU member has a right to veto their membership and many have very good reason to do so. Countries like Spain who already have smaller countries within their borders who also want independence can’t be seen to be backing break away countries elsewhere in Europe and maintain their stance at home. Also, this would be a country who’s first action would have been to default on a national debt! Why would any country in the EU trust them after all the bail outs during the recession?
In terms of a future economy there is so much propaganda and counter propaganda surrounding the oil fields that it strikes me as way too dangerous to base an economy on them and in terms of other business there already appears to be panic at the idea that independence might actually happen. Sterling took a hit yesterday and various CEOs have questioned staying in Scotland.
Also, I see the Scots moaning about their lot at the moment, but the current devolved powers (and if the No vote wins the further devolved powers) actually have given a great deal of autonomy with the safety net of being a part of the UK. So why remove that safety net? After all Salmond wants to keep Sterling so it’s almost a glorified devolution anyway.
(A side note on this subject: the MPs up there are already using those powers to sell off parts of the Scottish NHS to foreign investors at a rate that would even make the 'Etonian scum' down here embarrased - so much for the political utopia).
That’s all from the Scottish side of the potential split, but from the other side there would be a political unbalancing below the border that could take a generation to sort itself out. Who knows what that would do to the state of the UK. I would hate to be a in a country where someone like UKIP got a real foothold because of a change in the make up of Parliament. Or even if the country just became a Tory stronghold for the next decade. Urrgh the very thought.
Ah, fuck it. It’s not like I’ve got a vote. But hear this my Scotch friends, Andy Murray was British when he won Wimbeldon and that victory stays with us.
- agreed. i wouldn't trust salmond eitherlowimpakt
- The Spain EU vote point gets overlooked and its so obvious they will say no.sem
- Good pointsbabaganush
- rosko_picachu0
Scotland will get independence, England will get dependence. Dependence on Westminster. Dependence on America, dependence on blood oil.
The world's messed up in lots of different ways. It's gonna take huge changes to try and create a fairer system. It's not gonna be easy, but it's worth a try.
I can think of many reasons why Independence is good for both sides but from Scotland's point of view, where do you think all the excess ammunition was dumped after the first and the second world wars? That stuff still washes up on our beaches.
Having Faslane is wonderful, but who is the number one target for a nuclear strike? Where are Russia and China's nuclear weapons aimed at?
Now bearing in mind Faslane was set up during a time when Nuclear war was deemed as a threat, who and why was the decision made, that it would be OK for Scotland to take the first nuclear hit, should that unimaginable situation arise?
So don't give me that stuff about demographics, we love being who we are and we are no different to anyone else. Just a wee country wanting to look after ourselves and not have to waste money on an elite system with too much bureacracy that wants to flaunt itself as a major player, which i'm afraid it no longer is.
What England is presiding over right now, is the most disastrous administration since Thatcher. It's a puppet administration to take money out the public sector and give it away to the private sector.
It's a system that bleeds money and quite honestly anything would be better. Look at Cameron, Farage, Johnson. these are joke figures as is i gues Salmond to the English. Difference is, Salmond will turn around after this goes through and open up elections whereas Cameron wants to cling to power. English people don't know the first thing about Salmond. But i guess the media power in England is very effective. You only have to look at the sacking of people like Greg Dyke from the BBC to see what path they've went down. It's not a very impartial one, it's dismissive impartiality.
- kingkong0
The Scots are being sold a false prospectus. Here are some of the falsehoods.
(1) We own the pound and CU is inevitable.
(2) The EU will accept us with open arms (without being obliged to sign away our sovereignty and adopt the Euro)
(3) Significant businesses are largely pro separation.
(4) Oil revenue is not falling and can only increase.
(5) The NHS is at risk if we stay in the Union.
(6) Taxes will not increase.
(7) Jobs are not at risk.
(8) Mortgages will not increase.
(9) Interest rates on borrowing will notincrease.
(10) The bitter divisiveness between the yes and no camps is not an issue either now or in the future.
(11) rUK will accede to all of our negotiation demands.
(12) Pensions are safe.
(13) The separation on offer is true independence.
(14) Salmond is not a disingenuous, blustering bully,
(15) Salmond does not wish to inherit the mantle of Robert the Bruce.
(16) Salmond has Scotland’s best future interests at heart.And the biggest lie of all perhaps:
(17) “Things can only get better” after separation!!
- lowimpakt0
from the polls I have seen more Scottish people than English want to remain in the EU. What's interesting is how UKIP and the madmen of the Orange Order are pushing for a no vote. It really undermines their emotional currency.
Having said that, there is as much of an emotional tie to the United Kingdom as there is for independence. You see all the members of public in London being interviewed saying how they like the "idea" of the Union but you can tell they really don't understand the lived experience of people north and west.
- Wolfboy0
@lowimpakt
"people who argue against independence on purely rational terms don't get it and probably never will."
That is it in a nutshell for me, I can't believe this kind of massive decision would be made on anything other than rational terms and it scare me that it's looking like it will not be.
As I've said previously the people I've spoken to directly can give no strong and sensible argument for the independence of Scotland other than a romanticised vision of the future having finally escaped the terrible oppression of the English. By the way, I'm yet to hear anyone actually telling me they want no part of the UK, only that they want away from the English (leaving the union almost seems a side effect to many of the Yes voters).
I tell you why this really scares me, it's a signifier for the next potential referendum - the one regarding the UKs place in the EU. The man on the street will happily listen to the chest beating empty words of men like Nigel Farage and Alex Salmond as is being proved at the moment both in England and in Scotland.
- lowimpakt0
Sem, trying to explain why London receives so much political, economic and media attention just underlines the argument independence.
The current situation is shite and it's not going to change unless Scotland stands up for it/her/himself.
- lowimpakt0
people who argue against independence on purely rational terms don't get it and probably never will.
listening to BBC radio4 was interesting this morning. talk of a federal Britain with Scotland being the start of something significant.
all seriousness aside, there's definitely a bit of this at play
- sem0
@ Chossy
Just for the record, me mentioning racism was not just a random dig. Again I was just referring to facts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rac…
- i_monk0
Weeeeee!
(Canada takes in about a quarter million immigrants a year.)
- I've never been to Canada but seems like the kind of place I'd like to immigrate to.sem
- Canadians are very polite and welcoming, but the winter is deadly.zarkonite
- EU takes in over a million immigrants a yeard_gitale
- net immigration ~ 3/4 of a milliond_gitale
- The EU has the infrastructure for it. Canada's population is 1/14th the EU's.i_monk
- trued_gitale
- and seriously, most of that land is inhabitable. You euros have no idea what cold is.zarkonite
- er, uninhabitable.zarkonite
- hehe :)benfal99
- Nathan_Adams0
^
I agree. Sydney & Melbourne are pretty large already, but there's plenty of opportunity for the second tier cities (Brisbane, Perth, Adelaide), and third tier (Hobart, Darwin, Canberra, Geelong, Newcastle, etc.) to increase density. Won't happen while the general population regard urban sprawl and massive blocks as their birth right and the "Australian way", while apartments are looked down as dog boxes and future slums (which is ridiculous when the majority of apartment developments here are inner city and $$$).
- UK has 3 times the population of Australia which just puzzles me when you see the size difference.sem
- There's got to be a reason to move there. What jobs? It can't all be mines and cafes, although that's where it's heading.MrT
- heading.MrT
- Well i'm just going to go out on a limb here and assume a place that size could provide more jobs than the UKsem
- If they at least doubled in population construction alone could boom no? cities could double in size etcsem
- Obviously building an economy is not that straight forward but still, the growth could be amazing for Oz.sem
- sem0
Also, while we're talking about London's population issues...
Can I also just point out that the UK population is around 63m.
Compared to that of Australia which is around 22m.Then consider that Australia argues that a chunk of its land is inhabitable, but still add this rough guide into the equation.
Then ponder this question...you think it might be time for Australia to consider the rest of the world and open up a little more to immigration?
- Think its safe to say that London does its fucking job when it comes to helping others.sem
- So when places like Scotland attack our Government for not doing enough it makes me realise how ignorant and selfish they are.sem
- Bare in mind that London is just a city, thats not even taking into consideration what the whole of England does.sem
- And for the record, I'm proud as fuck that England (esp London) do their bit for the world. I welcome those in need of help as should everyone.sem
- sem0
People in Glasgow for example complain that London gets more attention as does the rest of the UK. Yet this people ignorantly ignore WHY that is.
Glasgow's population is around 500k
London's population is around 8mSo maybe ask yourself WHY London is getting a load of attention from the Government, because that is where a huge amount of this countries population are. There are small borough's within London that almost fit Glasgow's entire population into it.
There are many theories as to why, most commonly due to racism and the main cities (London, Birmingham etc) being the only places minorities feel they can integrate but hey...thats just a theory, there are just as many immigrants all over the rest of the UK and Scotland than in London right? lol, sure.
Add to this the amazing fact that despite London having around 25% of that 8m population in poverty (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-en... of which we know is a huge cause of crime. Glasgow is actually has higher rate of violent crimes per 100,000 people (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-sc... because life is so hard on them 500k being put a lower priority to 7.5m others so they have a right to be so violent. Seriously, this is how the argument looks to most English, its embarrassing.
So yeah, we might miss out on some odd oil money while it lasts, but the UK's crime rate will drop considerably when Glasgow and such out of the picture. And Scotland would no longer be able to blame the fact that the UK has priorities for their problems. Bring on the YES vote.
- chossy0
I love reading about myself here it's incredibly enlightening.
- kingkong0
ALEX Salmond has finally admitted he hates Scotland and wants the country to be independent so he can abolish it.
The Scottish first minister insisted his fellow countrymen are the worst people in the world who spend most of their time ‘either threatening to kill you, or vomiting on you’.
He said: “I can’t keep lying. It’s a hellhole filled with drunken nutters, ghastly housing estates and food that is simply disgusting.
“I’m going to win independence, bankrupt the place, set fire to the buildings and then move to France – as long there aren’t any Scottish people there.
“I want to leave this place a wasteland, populated only by scavenging piss-artists and thousands of bastard folk singers.
“Now I’ve finally come clean, I suspect I will have the backing of the vast majority of Scots, who all hate each other as much as I hate every single one of them.”
Mr Salmond also revealed he ‘loves the way Vladimir Putin holds ordinary Russians in utter contempt’ and would gladly hand Scotland’s economy to the terrifying president and his gangster cronies.
He added: “All Scottish people are sexual deviants.”
- kingkong0
ALEX Salmond has told Ed Miliband to ‘button it’ after the Labour leader tried to expose his epic scam.
Scotland’s first minister insisted he was working a sweet little number and that Miliband was making it hard for an honest thief to earn some scratch.
Salmond said: “I’m in the middle of the greatest long-grift of my life and this guy tries to queer my action.
“I thought we had a code. You see a guy doing a thing and you back off and find your own cheese.”
Salmond’s grift involves promising everyone in Scotland a non-existent oil field and selling them a health service they already own.
He added: “Give a guy some elbow room. I’ve been working these piss-monkeys for years.”
Salmond then put his arm around Miliband’s shoulder and told him to go back to scamming English idiots with the no-cuts fandango.
- kingkong0
I always think the daily Mash gets it about right...
SNP leader Alex Salmond has admitted he has never been entirely sure what he means when he says ‘independence’.
Scotland’s first minister revealed he has always thought of independence as a ‘play within a play... within a dream’.
He said: “Well, it’s a concept, it’s an idea, it’s a thing.
“In my mind I see it as a tree in the shape of Scotland. Does that make sense?”
Salmond said the idea of independence involving things like a currency and a central bank, was ‘very left brain’, adding: “How would you even do that?”
He said: “I think once independence is here I’ll have a much better idea of what it is.
“Any other questions?”
- sem0
@Wolfboy
That pretty much sums up a lot of what I've seen online.
"In a more just and democratic future when your grandchildren ask you if you supported the great change what are you going to tell them. That you were scared, that you thought a bunch of self serving Etonian scum seemed like a better choice"
That attitude has nothing to do with what would benefit the economy best, rather just pointless ignorant hatred for the UK and their efforts. Anyone who refers to the Government as Etonian scum clearly forms their opinion of all in the house on the actions of a few.
I'm curious if anything, I'd love to see this superhero government they are expecting to fix everything without any significant learning hiccups on the way.
I'm mostly interested in the new ideas this dream Government have on dealing with Glasgow's crime and addiction rates that no one else would have been trying. Apparently they have the cure for poverty and everything will be so much better so I'm all ears and hoping for the Yes vote.
- maybe they may feel that the problems in Glasgow are related to massively unequal society dreamed up in Westminster. maybe. i don't knowlowimpakt
- maybe, i don't know.lowimpakt
- Great points again. 'Yes' voters seem to think Scottish politicians will be saints...babaganush
- Glasgow population = 500k, London = 8m. Quarter of that 8m in poverty, so 2m yet Glasgow has high crime rates?sem
- kingkong0
The other wonderful thing will be:
"Whether Salmond was negotiating with Cameron or Ed Miliband (and it is worth remembering that if Labour wins in the UK in 2015 and then wins in Scotland in 2016, Labour could in fact be negotiating with itself), the process would be likely to be prolonged. The UK government would have every possible incentive to drive a hard bargain with Scotland, as Hammond made clear in the defence context this week, and it would be backed by public opinion."