Scottish independence
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- detritus0
I love/hate London - always have, since I used to visit family here as a kid, and was always perplexed by the self-involved, myopic bubble it lives in. Yet here I've lived, for all the reasons that the North is so pissed off about, for nearly 15 years — I couldn't do what I do (well, anyway) anywhere outside of here.
- I guess its the whole work to live, live to work argument.sem
- detritus0
Aye, Lowimpakt, that reminds me of an article I read 'this year or so' (which, annoyingly, I can't find or remember the source of - Economist, I think..?) which argued that much of the root cause of the London Problem is that its size in relation to sister cities across the country is vastly imbalanced compared to the spread of city sizes in other countries.
There's a hint of that argument here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finan…
This is the logic underpinning the probably flawed (in that it's not ambitious enough) HS2 train upgrades: that of bringing together northern metropolises (‘metropolii’?) to make a comparable 'super city' up in the 'North' (being from Northumberland, I'm bemused by people calling Manchester, which is in the midlands from my perspective, 'The North' :) )
- rosko_picachu0
@sem, yes you managed to find some statistics about the population of London, thanks. Good insight that. You seem to think that because London has a high population, that's a fair point. What i was suggesting is that some of the decisions made have been shocking with an out of sight out of mind attitude. Nothing to do with so called nonsense claims that Scotland hates England. If it does it is because it has been seen as a backwater dumping ground.
I'd say it's stupid to dump 1 million tonnes of ordnance in Beaufort's Dyke and mix that with radioactive waste is kind of a ticking time bomb waiting to go off at any time.
- lowimpakt0
the london centric nature of UK is a problem and the severity of the issues is worse in the UK Than anywhere else in Europe.
This chart shows the spread of wealth between regions in a country - It shows just how divided the UK is.
One root of this massive inequality was the rapid deindustrialisation of Wales and North England and shift towards financial service sector (localised in London). This shift in policy and focus was decided in London.
- rosko_picachu0
It's a move towards a fragmentation of the nation states which is going to upset capitalism.
Look at the EU, a centralized system where policies become less localized and therefore not so relevant to a specific areas needs.
This is what we've had from Westminster and this is the problem.
- sem0
Also just for the record, I love it up North and don't mean to sound like I'm all about the south.
Like you I believe unity is best, but a unity with a bit less blame culture please :)
- sem0
I understand what you're saying and agree fully that everyone should have a say in what goes on etc. And I agree that Scotland might get overlooked on certain things.
But they get free education, don't have as big a population, housing, unemployment problem as other places and its just ridiculous to make out they should be such a huge priority over other places needing attention.
- detritus0
By your logic, sem, Germany should be free to continually aggregate Herself through population and industrial might, at the expense of all other Euro partners.
That being the case, why on Earth should Italy or Spain be part of the EU? it's certainly not to their advantage or reason.
- sem0
"So don't give me that stuff about demographics, we love being who we are and we are no different to anyone else. Just a wee country wanting to look after ourselves and not have to waste money on an elite system with too much bureacracy that wants to flaunt itself as a major player, which i'm afraid it no longer is"
Haha, you basically just said "Don't give me them facts and statistics!" you did see that my points linked to sources right? Please take some time to read them.
As for your World War point of dumping ammo...you poor guys, tell me more about how you suffered in that horrible war.
- detritus0
I'm sorry, Why Should a self-enforcing entity such as London dictate to the rest of the motherland? Its existence and enterprise comes at the cost of that across the rest of the country - questioning that outwith base population terms is very much a valid enquiry!
Its population is still less than the rest of the country's put together, so it should very much be brought to heel.
- You do know you have a local council right? you know they are responsible for your town, city etc also.sem
- From a centrally-attributed allotment, sure. But hey, I live in London - I'm part of the problem here...detritus
- Also rather than youtube here is a better source for you http://www.bbc.co.uk…sem
- And I'm just saying that the amount of tax London gets from its huge population is relevant.sem
- And that its contribution is very significant so can't be look at as if its just taking from everywhere else.sem
- This video is from the Office for National Statistics, which sort of trumps the BBC here.detritus
- Sorry you're right I didn't check the source on youtube. More fool me I'll give you that good sir.sem
- sem0
"London and its city are a quasi-city state that at once acts as an all-consuming cancer, sucking away at the lifeblood of the rest of the country... as well as, perversely, resulting in a hugely inordinate share of the entire country's income"
Here is that thing or Northern folk ignoring facts again. Population = Priority. But feel free to just keep putting your opinion based points out there.
For our American friends, this is like Detroit moaning that NYC gets more money. Maybe because it generates more?
- Funny, I thought I was putting across both sides of the coin?detritus
- And, by the way, that inordinate share comes from ‘The 1%’ not the mass of over-population in London.detritus
- money from nothing= printing pressesyurimon
- Without Oligarchs and rich twats around the world investing in London, England has zip...god knows about Scotlandbabaganush
- yurimon0
Scotland aint going to get shit but a bunch of stupid politicians replacing a stupid system for another one. the New generation is dumb as fuck compared to those who understood what freedom was in the past times who fought the British. independence is anarchy... /<end>
- detritus0
I was up in Edinburgh recently, as my Dad's recently bought a wee flat there. I must admit, my heart got carried away with things as I looked around and I saw the earnestness with which her youth appeared to support independence. I thought, for the first time "well, why not?".
That was two weeks ago. I've since read up as much as I can and am now back thinking "it's too late, it's a bad time and it's a terribly-unconsidered and mostly reactionary stance".
The economics are grim and the sad fact is, the young earnest supporters of the Yes! camp would be the most-fucked by its outcome. It'd be a generation or so before the dust settled and the benefits reaped, and in the mean time, Scotland's youth would be left with even less opportunity than which they are faced with now.
.
My family's wholly Scottish, but I'm from the North East of England, where I've lived for a good 15 years of my life - like wolfboy, I consider myself more 'British' than English or Scottish.
The problems faced by Scotland are the exact-same as those faced by The North, by Wales, by Cornwall or Northern Ireland. Christ, by the Midlands, by Manchester and the middle belt - by Birmingham.
London and its city are a quasi-city state that at once acts as an all-consuming cancer, sucking away at the lifeblood of the rest of the country... as well as, perversely, resulting in a hugely inordinate share of the entire country's income.
The solution to Britain lies not in its dismemberment, rather in a greater involvement and cohesion.
Remember New Labour, before the Fall? Anyone recall how it was referred to as the ‘Scottish Mafia’, because of the large percentage of Scots who ran it and thusly, the whole country?
Times may have changed, but the Scottish core of New Labour didn't work in Scotland interests back then, merely fobbing Her off with a diluted version of devolution — what makes anyone think an independent Scotland's politicans of tomorrow will be any more self-interested?
Who was it that lost Scotland to the English in the first place? The English did their thing, sure — but it was our own who fucked things up for everyone else.
Self-interest fucks things up for everyone, everywhere.
Always has, always will.
- detritus0
Where oil money's concerned, Scotland should've gone independent in the 70s, when oil and gas reserves where still massive, then they could've gone the Norwegian route and built up a global powerhouse of a sovereign wealth fund with which to invest in its future.
It's too late for that and so oil revenues can only be, as they are now, frittered away on short-term social investment and loan percentage pay-offs.
- The same Norwegian's they stole the Shetland Islands from in the first place ha.sem
- kingkong0
^ all sounds great but this from Credit Swiss this morning. Internal report and nothing political in it's creation.
In our opinion Scotland would fall into a deep recession. We believe deposit flight is both highly likely and highly problematic (with banks assets of 12x GDP) and should the Bank of England move to guarantee Scottish deposits, we expect it to extract a high fiscal and regulatory price (probably insisting on a primary budget surplus).
The re-domiciling of the financial sector and UK public service jobs, as well as a legal dispute over North Sea oil, would further accelerate any downturn.
In our opinion, as North Sea oil production slows, we estimate that the non-oil economy would need a 10% to 20% devaluation to restore competitiveness. This would require a 5% to 10% fall in wages, driven by a steep rise in unemployment.
- rosko_picachu0
It's normal for people to underestimate the knowledge base in Scotland. Since the 70's we've been testing renewable energy and it's getting there. The thinking up here is we'll be able to sell the oil (we might not actually have to use it) to build a sustainable future. Sustainable in a number of ways.
One thing is guaranteed, wind power, sea power etc will be more than enough to power Scotland given time.
The oil is used to build that infrastructure, so we can sell oil when the price is suitable and sit on it if we decide to.
What happens if a no vote goes through? Well all the oil contracts get signed the day after and it goes to the deficit to keep the powers that be ripping through other countries natural resources.
Resources that we have in plentiful supply. Things like water.
Sure London has a very cool scene, but the Commonwealth games have just given us an idea of what a multicultural society in places like Glasgow would look like.
We've got the Universities to compete with anyone. We've got space for expansion.
What we also have is a lot of people promoting Yes and it makes for a new generation of politicians to come through in Scotland, better politicians than Boris Johnson and David Cameron, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown.
We can potentially tailor our education system, NHS system to be far more efficient than it is now. That's not gonna happen otherwise, it's gonna be slash and burn otherwise.
The currency has already been devalued by the sale of the gold, which was an enormous mistake. You lend money based on credit. Credit is determined by assets a major one being gold. If anything puts the currency at risk it's that.
While England has been worrying about Salmond, the clever/creative minds up here have got deeply involved in a lot of the issues and this next generation has a new chance to really look at things like education and completely begin to rip up the rule book on that one.
We can begin to look at where the future lies, and if the knowledge base gets educated in Scotland and moves to England, what happens when they begin to move back if England votes to leave the EU? What happens if Scotland turns around and legalises Marijuana. What happens if the green party actually take over government in Scotland. What happens if people from England get educated in Scotland and stay because it's a multi-cultural society with a cool scene, with good jobs and living conditions.
scottish people will invite business in, we'll bring in good minds from around the world. Don't blame us for the mess the economy is in.
Believe what you like in the media. I can see this is already transferring from media to people, without looking into it in nearly enough detail. The banks made the mess and were allowed to do so, from government deregulation.
Scandinavia they actually put the right people in jail. What did westminster do, bailed them out and let them continue as if nothing had happened.
It might actually suit business power and Cameron to turn the blame on the scots for a vote they've been given.
What would be the point in a vote if we weren't allowed to vote in the way we were? Because some look thinks that the scottish people aren't educated enough to vote? Well it's multiple coice and it's not so hard. The geeks have unravelled the truth up here and the message has got out and shared. We probably know a hell of a lot more about how the country works than the average person in England. This is change. Crazy change, radical change maybe, but i doubt it will be.
Rather than you guys letting us borrow a currency we invented, a banking system that worked and was hijaked, we'll use it until we can set up our own. If that's the euro, if that's our own currency then fine but like i said the pound without Scotland is on a shaky pedestal with the sale of the gold so it's quite bizarre such a big deal about it being made.
It is however a metaphor for the attitude of Westminster to think it would be ok for people within it's own country to think they should not have one because they say so.
- Good luck getting that "guaranteed" energy of yours finished in time without the UK http://www.theguardi…sem
- Jesus...Come back to Kansas Dorothy...babaganush
- hans_glib0
i still think it all boils down to
for: anything is better than what we have right now
agin: better the devil you knowneither argument is convincing (or rational, as others have pointed out). so arguing over it is pointless and destabilising. let's have the vote and be done with it. and then we can start clearing up the mess from whatever the result is.
- lowimpakt0
If voting for independence was voting for Salmond and the SNP, as opposed to a total reimagining of Scotland, i'd vote no.
- kingkong0
The reason I think a currency union would be inevitable is that what is happening to Sterling is really very bad for the whole UK not just Scotland.
The inevitable answer will be we will cover Scotland until they work out what they want to do just to ease market concerns and stop a dump of UK PLC shares and Gilts, which started happening yesterday.
If 4 million scots fuck up the economy, after everything that has happened since 2008, there would be hell to pay. In that regard they are right to say that Westminster would have to capitulate, or see plunging the UK into a deep recession.
It's amazing it has all come to this.
http://www.independent.co.uk/new…- That's a scary article, a lot of speculation of the extremes. Quite a bit of it doesn't feel too far fetched though.Wolfboy