3D: Flash vs HTML5
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- ernexbcn0
I was going to post just to say I'd love mrdoob to chime in but he already did, the guy knows his way around Flash, WebGL and comes from the demoscene, so he does know WTF.
- Yeh Mr doob is the shit, learn everything he says word for word. Tremble at his fantastic canvas stuff on his site. [bows]mikotondria3
- animatedgif0
"And all you have to do is to go http://www.papervision3d.org/ and see the 3D shit that you just saw in that video"
Comparing a purely software engine to a GPU accelerated engine with real time GLSL effects running over video?
Boz Status:
[ ] Clueless
[X] FUCKING CLUELESS
- mrdoob0
tl;dr... Pupsipu knows what he's talking about.
So this is my answer to the original question: Say that a Chinese company creates its own tablet with its own custom OS that sports a browser. They're free to implement WebGL on it without asking anyone. However, if they would like to have Flash, they depend on Adobe to port.
- currently Flash runs on more platforms than WebGL does..and this won't change for a long time.Boz
- Pupsipu0
Apps and OS APIs are better technologically and have enough popular support among developers that it's hard to predict wether Flash/Browsers will come out ahead. You can improve OSs much faster than clusterfucked compatibility layers.
The best technological hope the web has is NativeClient. http://googlecode.blogspot.com/2… Google knows that JavaScript VMs are a dead horse with limited capabilities and they're really hard to develop. It took big teams to make and optimize V8. It's taking Mozilla years to catch up. Java VM on Android took years to optimize, and desktop Java has been optimized for a decade before that. A lot of the desktop VM work didn't transfer to mobiles because they have less RAM.
Virtual machines are hard. Google has http://golang.org/ which is a language that can run as fast as C, compile as fast as JS and feels easyish to code in. It's a lot easier to get such a language into shape than optimize a VM. NativeClient will then securely run the binaries. It's the same as apps, but you're not depending on app stores and anti-viruses for security.
There is this Pepper API effort that will allow NaCl to hook into the same APIs JS can use. Mozilla has it's own new language, Rust, lots of similar features and goals as Go.
So basically we may end up with old school OSs but with new secure languages and sandboxes instead of anti-viruses. And with new idiot friendly UIs inspired by the web and iOS.
- ukit0
@BattleAxe
I think there will be space for all these things. It's silly to think apps will take over everything, or that everything will be Flash based or that Flash will disappear entirely because of HTML5...
Has the web ever worked that way? It has always been a bunch of competing interests and technologies, and all signs suggest it will continue that way in the future.
So pick your niche...there will most likely be a place for it. Unless it's Silverlight:)
- Even Silverlight probably has its place on Windows Phone etcukit
- BattleAxe0
Puts Devils Advocate Mask on:
All things listed exist in app form, or via rendred Quicktimes and exporting assets from 3D software like Max, Maya etc
I guess what I am getting at is I do feel The Web is dead and 3D wont save it, devices will get smaller and be app driven cause of markets (itunes, Droid Store etc)
I have already seen some great 3d games done in Flash , and nice presentations of 3D models / assets or consumer products done in 3D via apps, or slick Flash sites
While people in the Creative industry will still need powerful desktops , what about Joe Shmoe ? iPad 3 and Xoom 2 will be more and more appealing for some vs a desktop even laptop
3D content will only be as good as its producers and I dont see them going to the Web to make a living as a 3D artist , when game companies , military, and industrial sectors are all looking for Apps
- Boz0
Here try this. It's an Indie Unity based game that I'm sure they will release as Flash once FP11 is out. It's truly awesome.
- team_zissou0
id like to see a browser based 'Doom' game... i might play it for a few minutes on my break.
- Pupsipu0
And many more tools exist for HTML to build content sites. Not as many tools for what you call "interactive," otherwise known as difficult to interact with F-W-A style sites.
Your assumption that Flash will run perfectly on all devices, while HTML5/WebGL will be inconsistent is just a fanboy dream. They'll both be a mess.
Maybe Flash tech is better, will be developed faster, but very likely that its community will remain small. And it's more difficult to develop when the community is smaller, less libraries, blogs, etc.
I doubt that Flash will be developed faster though, Google has traditional, financial motivations for pushing web capabilities forward. Same as MS IE had and it moved fast, until business objectives were met. Mozilla was some weird open source experiment with weird priorities. You're basing predictions of the future on a misunderstanding of history.
- Mojo0
> Education
- Mojo0
> Playing games
> Apps/services: House/room planners, anything involving a real-life environment, 3D design related,
> eCommerce: See your product purchase in 3D (with GPU APIs, I suspect that the 3D data for a reasonably complex 3D model + texture wouldn't be too heavy on the bandwidth)- Some simple examples, but I'm sure there is plenty of potential utility in better 3D.Mojo
- Boz0
@BattleAxe
Well here's an idea I had but i couldn't realize without real 3D support (Papervision was not enough and the quality was crap)..
I wanted to build an app in Flash that would allow me to create a rich interactive catalog and tracking of how far your house is built (when you buy a house that's being built by KBHomes for example).
So you would be able to pick item from a builder's catalog of products, kitchens and so on and put them and when your house is built you go through the floorplan and you can put those catalog items directly inside the house and see how they look without going through the pain of going to the actual store, picking stuff and so on.
Then you would have an app or a widget for your desktop you could have and it would be updated with news from the builder in regards to your house but you would see every 3d aspect as your house is being built.
I mean I thought about this years ago and but it wasn't possible.. now with 3D you can build complete houses and have interactivity in building it out in 3d, different texturing, and so on on fly.
- ukit0
Let's be honest...neither of these platforms are going to have super easy "tools" to work with. When you talk about the Adobe racecar demo or the Google Quake demo in WebGL, its not like some web designer with a working knowledge of code is going to be able to pick up a copy of Flash and create that anytime soon:)
Look at Papervision...it was largely adopted by people on the leading edge of Flash dev, not the average Flash user. No reason to think Molehill will be any easier, especially right off the bat. Even a tool like Unity3D that is much more robust and visual than the Flash IDE for creating 3D content requires skills in a number of areas including programming, 3D modeling, etc...
- BattleAxe0
A hypothetical, ok so you are able to do 3D in all browsers , now what? More eye candy and spining logos? What do you expect to be building in 3D?
- Boz0
@Mojo
I think you are completely right.. i think WebGL will find it's place but I just don't think it will be a main choice for 3d for a long time if ever. It really depends on tools. If we see a lot of good tools in producing WebGL content it might allow non-Flash people to build some 3D interactivity.. but it's gonna be tough.
Future of Flash? 3D games on the web, rich apps and games on mobile devices, tablets, TVs and so on. It hink It will still have usage for the websites and similar but not as much because JQuery and HTML5 and CSS and web fonts have matured enough to finally do some things that Flash was used for. And that's really great.
As far as Silverlight goes I think that thing is dead on the web. It will be platform/technology used to develop for Windows Phone 7 and Xbox 360 apps and basically future Microsoft platforms that deal with some kind of apps or whatever but that's about it. I don't see anyone using it on the web as Microsoft themselves lifted their hands from it for the web.
- Pupsipu0
I'm not a fanboy of HTML5 or Flash, I think they're a waste of people's time. They're technological legacy, shit we'd rather be rid of but we can't because of some decade old successes.
I'd rather have some framework to run a variety of APIs and languages on all computers, so Browsers, Flash, Silverlight, Objective-C, Unity would just be personal preferences, but that's not currently practical.
There's no doubt who the delusional fanboys are. You're as crazy for Flash as dh is crazy for open standards. I don't care one bit for either, they both promised the moon and delivered capabilities from the 90's.
Again, the ROME WebGL demo was not possible in Papervision 2 years ago. It may seem that way at a glance, but not if you count the polygons and framerates. The most popular 3D engine for WebGL is Mr. Doob's Three.js. Notice how Mr. Doob, a Flash superstar, doesn't share a religious devotion to Flash. There are lots of other WebGL engines, as many, if not more than Molehill engines.
The last posts on the Papervision blog are from 2010 http://blog.papervision3d.org/. Seems most people moved on to Away3D or others because Papervision for F10 was abandoned, while Away3D kept up.
As far as community size, Github is a good enough indicator and ActionScript is like #15 there. No doubt Flash's community is smaller and produces less libraries.
So far Molehill capable Flash is the same 0.1%. WebGL and Molehill will come out around the same time. Both have hardware acceleration that won't be consistent across devices and OSs.
And as far as your blabbering hostile responses, I'll just assume your Audi broke down.
- Boz0
Here's what I believe will happen.
HTML5/WebGL will be used for A LOT more things. That's undoubtedly true. Maybe not now but in the coming years a lot of less complex, HTML5 driven apps will be present more then before. This is natural and it's great.
So there will be less need for many things to use Flash for.. That's without a doubt. But as Google understands and sees and the reason they integrated Flash into Chrome is that we will be building truly fantastic experiences by utilizing both Flash and HTML5 for example.
The 2 are not excluding. Flash Molehill plus HTML5 stuff like local storage and similar will work like magic and JS will be used as a bridge between the too.. not to mention apps that need to use micrphone and camera and so on through Flash but are basically HTML5 apps.
I'm supporter of HTML5.. I love it.. I think it's moving the web forward and I have no issues for it to replace many functionalities Flash does..but unfortunately no matter how much someone supports open standards you realize that they are not appropriate for everything. Especially in commercial projects where security and DRM and stuff like this is needed.
It is also important to note that even though it would be cool, I"m highly skeptical that HTML5/WebGL will EVER come close to the speed and platform compatibility that Flash/AIR will give us with Molehill. I think the fact that you can bulild everything in Flash/AS3 for games or interactive experiences and be able to release it as desktop app for app stores (like Mac App Store, or new intel app store or similar) and then release the same thing on iOS and Android and then the same thing on Blackberry.
Try making all those environments behave and process HTML5/WebGL the same. If that happens I'll call it magic. But it's really a dream in reality.. With Flash/AIR that becomes very much possible.
- Mojo0
@Boz: Thanks for replying.
I couldn't agree more, Flash has done 3D for a long time, and when Molehill comes I think it really opens the web to a new realm of possibilities, with proper GPU access Flash can now do serious gaming and clientless 3D applications over the web, and it's already proven itself to be powerful today. I have no doubts that Molehill is technically a better solution.
VHS & Beta.
I think WebGL will be used casually, as mentioned, cross-platform games etc, but at the moment appears to be developing slowly and is very limited. I don't believe that WebGL will catch up with Molehill any time soon. However, I still suspect there is a place for WebGL, other than cross-platform games.
I can imagine the benefits of building sites in our mature markup, and easily adding in 3D to enhance a website's interaction, and take HTML websites more into the realm of the 'Flash Microsite' area, which is good because for information and the structure of the internet, HTML makes the most sense. It really is a bit shit at the moment when you view a content heavy site in Flash and you can't easily print a selection, zoom text etc.
The future of Flash?
There's a clear direction of 'general purpose' (not micro or 'rich experience' sites) websites getting more 'rich' as presentational/interactive technologies (CSS3, device APIs etc) mature and become more widely supported.
Will the improvement of HTML5 technologies (inc CSS3) mean that Flash becomes less and less relevant for 'rich' (as defined above) sites? We can clearly see that people are now able to do some of the things Flash could only do, in HTML.
And following on from that question, does the future of Flash lie in GPU 3D?
Side questions:
> Is Flash becoming less relevant as a tool for developing applications because of Silverlight maturing?
> Will 3D ever really be an important part of 'general purpose' websites? VRML v2 anyone?
- ukit0
And that's why long term, I highly suspect HTML5/ WebGL is the future. It simply makes more sense, from the POV of companies like Google, to support standards based technologies which they have greater control over.
Short term Molehill will no doubt make a splash, although how far along WebGL will be by then will be interesting to see. We'll see what happens though, it's a bit pointless to argue over, and let's face it, all this stuff offers exciting development possibilities:)
