3D: Flash vs HTML5
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- Mojo
I am interested to know what the opinions are of Flash's future developments. Clearly, web browser's are expanding rapidly to accomodate a wider range of APIs and possibilities.
Recently, a Google Experiment project was released called Rome. (link: http://ro.me ) This is quite a fun 3D experience, and used WebGL technology for GPU-powered 3D in the browser.
Also, Flash will soon release the 3D Molehill
(link: http://www.photonstorm.com/archi… ) APIs, which will allow quite powerful access to a hardware accelerated jizz-fest of 3D pixel-shaded unicorns.So, how will this pan out? Will Flash evolve to provide awesome 3D on the web, and win devs over with it's suite of tools etc, or will HTML browsers with GPU win the market with yet-to-be-created tools and a currently limited (but rapidly-expanding) API.
Bias: I am primarily a frontend dev using HTML5, but I also do occasional AS3, though my flash output is lessening over time.
Thoughts?
- Mojo0
Sorry, some crappy grammar in here!
- 3030
I remember nice plugin/library for flash called Papervision but what I can see, both solutions (3d using flash or html5) make high usage of CPU.
I think that Flash might get small advantage while HTML5 is not popular. HTML5 clearly gains popularity and I expect it to overtake Flash in some feature. But that depends what the learning curve will look like and will there be any standard API/Library.- Yeah, that's now. Flash will get GPU APIs, so CPU not required to render 3D.Mojo
- monospaced0
iPad
- Someone try http://ro.me/ on an iPad. I bet you'll get 1 frame per second.CyBrainX
- so?monospaced
- fadein110
Where's Boz when you need him?
- jadrian_uk0
one is a virtual machine the other not, ?
- and you have to like Flash developpement or notjadrian_uk
- in english?
Mojo
- spot130
I say that neither Flash or HTML5 or whatever new Jesus created API that comes out in the next few years will be the platform of choice for future inter-webbers.
In my opinion, simple text browsing will experience a incredible upsurge over the next few years through a grass roots movements that will reject graphics, 3D, video and design.
- CyBrainX0
Molehill and HTML5 will both improve in the future. The problem with HTML5 is that you have to ask people to use Chrome. For now, most people are way too lazy to download a browser.
- Google Apple Mozilla and Microsoft will never agree on HTML5. Text is the cross-browser platform of the future available today!spot13
- It's not like there won't be any need for 3D on the web. Something will work out. We're not all been counters 24/7CyBrainX
- HTML5 is not WebGL. HTML5 is not limited to Chrome. Chrome is only stable browser atm to have WebGL enabled defaultMojo
- fugged0
hey, you forgot VRML!
- Mojo0
@CyBrainX: Both will of course, improve. I'm not sure you understand how HTML5 is developing, because the things that make http://ro.me/ look sexy (WebGL, for instance) will become standard across browsers.
At some point WebGL will come with Safari, but at the moment you have to specifically enable it.
I think I asked this question in the wrong place.
Sorry QBN, you can now return to Pic of the Day, Chick of the Day, the gif animation thread , WANT of the day, Vid of the day etc..
- CyBrainX0
I know about WebGL, but you're right about not knowing how much of this stuff is considered HTML5. Sort of like the Arcade Fire video. People are usually not very specific about it.
- chrisRG0
I have plenty experience with Flash and learning HTML5/JS/Canvas, what I can tell you is that besides all "blah blah blah", Flash still the best option in almost al the cases and will stay for longer.
What I've been saying to most of my clients that ask for fancy HTML5 (flash like) websites, is to take a look at the web statics and to open the HTML5 sites on the iPad, most of them are rubish and slow. But indeed HTML5 may be the future.
If your client has budget, propose them a Flash site with HTML fallback ;)
Anyway, is always good to lear a new language, so get into HTML/WebGL if you can.
PS: Even that fantasic Martha Graham Google Doodle animates at a horrible framerate on the iPad.
- or just learn how to program HTML5 competentlyanimatedgif
- chrisRG0
The reality is:
Flash does the job.
HTML5 does the marketing.- Did you even read the first post? http://dictionary.re…Mojo
- team_zissou0
whatever wins the mobile space will be in the best position.
but honestly, flash cannot compete with html because it is a plugin.
ie: a 3d plug-in for photoshop will never overtake photoshop
- Mojo0
@CyBrainX: Yes, WebGL isn't HTML5, but like the HTML5 site says, we're (developing users of the technology) use the term HTML5 as an umbrella term
@chrisRG: Thanks for replying, but you were quite vague! I'm asking about a GPU-power race, and a suitable answer requires some knowledge of the technology in question. Flash will obviously always have a place, and undoubtedly the future /is/ HTML5, so how does Flash 3D fit in?
Also, The Martha Graham Google Doodle was made from CSS sprites and 154 <divs>, so the iPad was slow because Google chose to use Javascript to do the 'animation' (wider support, and Google have a massive audience to cater for) and I've noticed the iPad 1 is a bit shit at lots of JS (DOM) 'animation'.
- Mojo0
Just to clarify, key words of the question posed are 'Flash', 'Future', 'GPU', '3D', 'WebGL'.
If you do not understand the relationship of these words, please don't bother replying with something like 'LOL OMG FLASH/HTML IS TEH BEST LOSERZ'
I posted here because I thought Flash devs in-the-know would be interested in discussing this.
- iPad! loserz!monospaced
- "Flash devs in-the-know"
Such a thing exists?animatedgif
- Mojo0
As of right now, the only stable (as in, public) browser build to have WebGL enabled is Chrome (although Opera 11 preview has it). So, of course NOW, the GPU-accelerated stuff is 'limited' to Chrome.
But in the FUTURE, all modern browsers will probably have WebGL.
- dude you're a genius , how can you preddict such things?jadrian_uk
- ..by seeing the trends of current browser makers adopting technologies (FF, Opera, webkit).. they're in the same directionMojo
- chrisRG0
Yep, clichet but you can't predict the future.
PV3D is a good example, it was everywhere, there was ppl writting book, conferences ans classes all over the word, and the suddenly "died". It's hard to rely on something that it's not out there and fully working, makes sense?
Sorry, I thought your question was Flash vs WebGL, clearly is not.
But what do you plan to do/learn?
- Boz0
Mojo.. WebGL is not going to be ready for a long time.
I like the 3D Rome demo but that's like basic 3D stuff right? With panning and so on. You could have done those things in Papervision years ago. Flash is already there now even without 3D low level API coming in Molehill.
Also don't forget.. WebGL really needs canvas 3D API to evolve and the official canvas in HTML5 is canvas 2D API. Also, WebGL implementations vary from browser to browser, so will performance.
Personally I think does who support HTML5 to death don't take it into account that MS will most likely introduce HTML5+ and Firefox will do something else and Chrome will do like WebGL+ which will have dire and worse consequences to compatibility aspects. Even today, with CSS3 you have to write the same code 3 times to accommodate mozilla CSS properties, webkit CSS properties, IE specific properties or you are forced to use some kind of bridging framework or some shit like that.
This is the problem that plagued everyone forever with HTML/CSS/JS and will be even more visible as browser functionalities expand.
Let's not forget that unless a browser itself doesn't open an API for you for camera, for microphone and other shit, you simply won't be able to create social interaction things or live streaming or any interaction with 3D which is obviously again going in the gesture/Kinect type style right? So Molehill implementations might very well include demos that will allow you to use Kinect to navigate 3d environments and web games. A lot of people don't think about this aspect but it's incredibly important in building an immersive game or app in 3D. But let's get back into the discussion of 3D.
I believe THE ONLY advantage WebGL has is that you can code it with Javascript and essentially it doesn't require plugin. However, in that sense, they lack significant security (this doesn't help: http://bit.ly/mn7rmA ), they have to rely on browser development and improvement in WebGL support which are usually very slow and you will most likely have issues at certain browsers supporting different things again. The quality isn't there either. If you look at the WebGL demos almost none of them look great really.. They are providing us with actual 3D environment but we don't have anti-aliasing, we miss a lot of things that would provide you with quality 3D and that's really what developers and even those who create 3D rich interactive experience want.
But let's address this thing from another standpoint. Ubiquity.
Flash runs on 93 or 95% of computers today. This is unbelievable power. Chrome and other browsers already have automated process to update Flash to the latest version. This almost guarantees Flash Player 11 support when it's release on a massive level. For developers this means everything. This is why Unity guys added export for Molehill in their editor. The level of sophistication of Unity game for example can't even come close to WebGL demos and Unity developers will now publish for Molehill so you will have these unbelievable 3D games built in Unity ready available for Molehill.I'm not even getting into 3D engine development from 3rd parties. Unity is actually an engine. But as Flash developers know, over these last couple of years we have so many 3D engines available to us from Away3D, Sandy 3D, Alternativa etc.. All of these guys are doing some insane things with Molehill and adopting to their engines so developers can have serious diversity in building games and picking engines that suit them. And they are all going to run perfectly in one unified environment without any compatibility problems that will run on OSX, on Windows, on Linux.
But that's not where it ends really.. WebGL is really not optimized for mobile devices, TVs, tablets.. it runs awful and you will then again have to have all mobile browsers include hardware acceleration and support for WebGL which is probably never going to happen or it will be a mess IMO.
That's where Molehill will have an advantage as well. Molehill is getting integrated both into Flash Player 11 but also AIR 3.0.
So what does this mean to you as a developer for example. This means that you can pick up the engine you like the most (Unity or Away3D or the other guys), build a sick 3D game that is fully GPU driven, publish your game not only for the web (FP11) and Chrome store and so on, but to all Android devices (or 90%), iOS devices, Android tablets, Blackberry , GoogleTV and other platforms and have just minor changes (matter of hours or at most days) in covering everything.
This is why WebGL won't even compete.. Will it be used for some things.. absolutely.. I can see people doing it here and there and for open source projects and so on, but I have been saying for a while.. Flash/AIR is the future of superb GPU/3D accelerated apps and games. The advantage of being a runtime is going to become very obvious.
Lastly, for designers, developers and so on to really create functional and beautiful WebGL projects, they need tools and as of now, there are none and it probably won't happen for years where Flash will again already use Molehill and I can see all or majority of 3D game developers just using Flash as they are already used to it, they have ubiquity, they can make desktop games as well web games without changing a thing etc etc..
The point is, it's not just necessary that browser can render a webGL project.. it's necessary that tools also support it for it to even get some traction. Other than that, it will just remain a cool demo for something that was easily done with Flash but doesn't require plugin with no other visible advantages.
- get a blog.team_zissou
- ummm...this IS his blogmonospaced
- Thanks for replying mate. I really see two sides to this! HTML5+ point is very true..Mojo