Money is Evil
- Started
- Last post
- 169 Responses
- mrghost0
one time i roamed around new orleans and ate out of the garbage. i didnt have any money and i was miserable, cold, and lonely.
this lasted 2 months before i remembered that i had a credit card and got a train to DC where i spent all the money i didnt have.
- did that first part really happen?********
- http://farm2.static.…mrghost
- katrina?********
- it was after katrina... i went with a friend and ended up staying.mrghost
- did that first part really happen?
- ukit0
Here's the thing though, blitznutty - we are already living in Milton Friedman's world. Most of the policies enacted in America over the past 30 years are ones Friedman would have enthusiastically approved of.
Even a "leftist" like Obama (left by American standards, not world standards) is being advised by a team of people that have ties to Friedman. People like Christina Romer or Austan Goolsbee came out of the Chicago School of Economics where MF taught and had a big influence.
So seeing as how American society in general is less well off now than 30 years ago, what does that say about this kind of thinking? Can we say the same about Friedmanism that we did about Leninism, well-intentioned but unworkable in practice? Maybe it's time for some new ideas.
- bliznutty0
ukit, in all fairness, you get caught up in all the 'whos' and 'isms'
when we accept the world for it being a natural place, put away fear and accept freedom, then you will realize its not all about 'ideas' in society. capitalism and freedom aren't ideas- they are natural. i believe you are looking at it inversely -from the inside out, like freedom is a ridiculous idea, or capitalism was an idea, or free markets in general are an idea?!? anyway.. just curious - what exactly are you wishing for humankind on earth? what is your philosophical context?
- bingo********
- like beaten wives that have been conditioned to think beatings are natural and not beaten is unnatural?********
- deathboy, you don't support freedom? If it were taken away from you, you sure would.********
- as they say, "you don't know what you got 'til it's gone"********
- of course i do. im saying those who think its just "idealism" have been conditioned to think that way. in other words +1********
- Oh, gotcha.********
- bingo
- Boz0
capitalism only works if regulated.. otherwise it's the wild.. those who get the most money will exterminate anyone else who threatens them. Greed eventually leads to lawlessness.
- I think it should only be regulated for criminal conduct though********
- not for wealth manipulation or redistribution********
- how its regulated is the detail. if regualted that the peopel who make the regulations are easily corruptable then regulation fails. greed is bad.********
- regulations are to fault. cant talk about regualtions as a cure as a whole. if so no context********
- greed is bad. its greedy peopel who corrupt their money. not money that corrupts********
- I think it should only be regulated for criminal conduct though
- ********0
"So seeing as how American society in general is less well off now than 30 years ago"
Bullshit. Our standard of living has not decreased in the slightest. Neither has our GDP over this 30 years.
- actually yes it did.. it changed for the worse.. the only thing that change is that people don't have money to pay for stuff so they get in debt moreBoz
- they get in debt more. So it's an illusion that you have the same, when in fact you don't but you borrow money.Boz
- Show me the stats, please.********
- look no further but number of bankruptcies.Boz
- Doesn't prove anything about standard of living... the population has grown********
- I can show you how income per capita has grown faster than inflation********
- ********0
Boz, obviously it needs to be regulated. Who the hell here is saying there should be ZERO regulation? I'm not. Hell, humans need to be regulated regardless of the economic system in place. Crime is universal.
But its need for regulation doesn't make it any less of what it is; the best path to national prosperity.
- ok so why don't you call congress and tell them it's ok to send your job oversea?zarkonite
- actually sending jobs overseas is wealth distribution occuring naturally. global vs local.********
- I would if my job was outsourcable.********
- call them and tell them to remove the rules against that! oh and why don't you abolish immigration law too, everyone should be allowed to go anywhere right?zarkonite
- should be allowed to come in and work right?zarkonite
- i dont mind opening boarders. but people havent evolved enough yet and are still too tribal********
- ********0
- yawn********
- :: slap, slap, slap ::
WAKE UP!******** - Israel is irrelevant to this current discussion.********
- Take your conspiracy theories elsewhere.********
- I hear Jessie Ventura has a new show.********
- haha. yeaaa. thats what i thought********
- yawn
- Boz0
btw.. spread.. here you go:
- Doesn't prove anything about a decrease in standard of living********
- Pure conjecture.********
- yes credit does make an illusion however there has been an increase in standard of living albeit inflated by too much credit********
- credit is a double edge sword. it can push growth and can also destroy it. just a matter of proper lending. the peopel who lend irresponsibly should fall for balnce********
- lend irresponsibly should fall to reset balances. however tha reset would be a big step back********
- and not bery pragmatic. needs to be eased, but wow what a big job********
- Doesn't prove anything about a decrease in standard of living
- zarkonite0
Unbridled capitalism will ultimately lead to monarchy. A ruling class and a bunch of peasants.
There is no such thing as a free market, you're grossly misinformed if you think there is. The simple fact we're not all using the same currency is the basis for controlling all markets. Think of the thousands upon thousands of rules that regulate all aspects of trading in the largest sense of the word, there's no way that deregulating is a good thing because it is a set of rules that create this system you think is free... anwyays, good luck with those libertarians taking over your government and don't complain when america wakes up without a middle class and not enough wealth to create one, you've been pissing it away for 30 years with a negative trade balance and now you've even run out of credit.
- Boz0
Also relevant to your question:
- you can read the whole article from NPR here: http://www.npr.org/t…Boz
- Borrowing has increased... still doesn't prove a lower STANDARD OF LIVING********
- ********0
"he simple fact we're not all using the same currency is the basis for controlling all markets."
What?....
and no we haven't run out of credit, and our middle class will not suddenly disappear. You can now take off your tin foil hat.
- the fed is in the process of producing more money right now to lower its value to help exports.zarkonite
- All developed countries do this. It's not controlling the markets, it's controlling your currency.********
- at the same time complaining that china's yen is too low, doesn't sound like a free market to me.zarkonite
- China has historically refused to FREELY float their currency like the rest of us do.. keyword is freely********
- that IS how you control your market, what do you think will happen your export market if the fed doesn't play with it?zarkonite
- and China's only been controlling their money since 2008zarkonite
- besides, the value of money is based on rules that also change regularly. WTO, read up my friend.zarkonite
- I don't need to read up on anything. I'm quite well versed in this. What is your point?********
- Yes, every country has policies regarding their respective currencies... and then...? How does that discredit capitalism...********
- Since 2008? You read up. China has had a fixed currency for longer than that********
- ukit0
blitznutty, the whos and isms DO matter. Do you really think the current American libertarian approach to things is what has been practiced for most of history or that it represents some kind of natural human state?
If you go back to humans in their earliest form, what they practiced was closer to communism if anything. Go out and collect resources, and then distribute them among the entire group. There was no "rich guy" or "poor guy" in the tribe.
I'm not gonna recite an entire history of economics right here, but "capitalism" in the modern sense is a very recent invention that came out of the mid 1700s, and didn't really catch on until much later.
Mixed capitalism is the system that dominated during America's peak (40s-70s). We were capitalist but your ability to get insanely rich was somewhat limited, taxes were 90% on wealth above a certain point. In the 80s this was replaced by Friedmanite or monetarist thinking. A lot of the changes over the past 30 years (huge deficit, growing inequality) can be attributed to this. Maybe there's also been some good things to come out of it, but at least place it in the proper context.
Anyway, to make a long story short, our way of thinking has evolved over time. No reason to think it shouldn't continue to evolve.
- Boz0
"Doesn't prove anything about a decrease in standard of living"
Are you fucking kidding me? What's so hard for you to understand..
People BORROW more money to have the same standard of living.. that makes it imaginary.. the system doesn't work because you are getting in debt to pay off your lifestyle.. that's direct decrease in standard of living but you don't see it because you keep borrowing money you can never repay.
- Debt has always been a part of the system. Nothing new.********
- You can easily have a good standard of living WITHOUT getting into debt, trust me.********
- Oh I know.. but almost 70% of americans can't.. numbers show it. Because their standard of living started dropping, they started borrowing money more. Money they can never repay.Boz
- started borrowing money more and more to maintain that "american dream". Money they can never repay.Boz
- It isn't dropping. Americans desire a higher standard of living than they can afford. That's the problem.********
- Debt has always been a part of the system. Nothing new.
- zarkonite0
it's not going to suddenly disapear, but you have to admit 100s of thousands of people losing their homes and 10% (and going up!) of the people not having work will catch up to you.
man I wish you hadn't bailed out GM, that would've have been legend... wait for it... dary!
- bliznutty0
"Unbridled capitalism will ultimately lead to monarchy. A ruling class and a bunch of peasants."
-- sounds just like the past too!
"There is no such thing as a free market... now you've even run out of credit."
-- The problem should be obvious by now
anyway i think everyone is confusing capitalism with the current currency system (e.g. quantity)
- no such thing as a free market seems silly. its the standard. then rules and law/force get applied on top.********
- if two peopel dont agree to trade freely then one bashes the other with a club and takes********
- no such thing as a free market seems silly. its the standard. then rules and law/force get applied on top.
- ukit0
http://www.classesandcareers.com…
"The combined amount of personal debt in the US is $2 trillion which is about the GDP of England. That means Americans are in debt more than a country earns in a year. And that $2 trillion debt boils down to $117,951 per household."
If that doesn't represent the failure of an economic system then what does?
- ukit0
"It represents the failure of how people utilize the system. Not the system itself."
This is a great way to excuse anything.
- No, it's a great way to accurately blame irresponsible lending and borrowing.********
- peopel adapt to the rule sof the game. its a gmae because of the rules. bad rules ruin the game. basketball on knees would be uncool. and would lose ratings********
- would suck and lose ratings and people would leave. need a healthy balance.********
- need bruce lee styling flow like water********
- if somethign fails try and try again. hard part is admitting the failure. ok knees was a bad idea, lets stand. rational gov would be neat like that********
- would be neat liek that. but peopel are fickle and easily manipulated and someone would lie for there job and promise more freebies and peopel vote.. edu is best policy********
- so forth so we need to focus on edu. philosophy and such and get better voters. guess i blame voters more then gov********
- liek drugs. cant sell drugs to peopel who know better. a suplly demand issue. we have a bad demand, bad suppliers step up********
- step up********
- No, it's a great way to accurately blame irresponsible lending and borrowing.
- ********0
ukit, the water system in the US allows households to use basically as much water as you want. If I keep filling up my bathtub, then my bathroom, then my whole house and I end up drowning because of it.... is it the fault of the water system in place? Or is it my fault?
- ********0
Is speaking in analogies too complex for you?
Maybe this will help. Think of the water as debt and the water system as our current economic system.
Who's to blame?
- but you can't get as much debt as you want, you can only get debt on wealth you already have but isn't in movable assets.zarkonite
- it's when the lender over values your passive assets that you get into trouble...zarkonite
- like borrwing 200k on a 100k house and then demand dries up, bank freaks out, everyone's out of cash.zarkonite
- and then there is perceived wealth liek what a house is supposedly worth. or a stock...********
- to answer your question: the rule makers for not checking on the lenders.zarkonite
- deathboy: precisely, SPECULATIVE wealth is the problem.zarkonite
- money is a big illusion but it helps to evolve past tribalism.********
- i have no answers on speculation vs real or what can be done. so big it makes my head hurt********
- many cultures, currencies, valueing, and such in a global marketplace makes it impossible to have a single solution. why i like to look at individual level********
- solution why i liek to look at thigns at an individual level. why i like libetarian type philosophy and hate politics********
- and i dont ignore politics as some imaginary thing liek liberty. i think of it as more of an bs job hunt. what imaginary thing can you sell to get a paycheck********
- thing can you sell or who to sell to get your paycheck/power. equivalent of a drug industry to me********
- and they profit from 2 crazy sides buying there dope. while bitching about what gives better highs********