Che - The Movie
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- Llyod0
I fucking hate commies
- rafalski0
Just make sure you watch it like I'm going to, in true communist spirit: steal your copy!
Extra points if it's a DVD, not just a torrent.
- Khurram0
What makes you think this film will be a glorification of Guevara and everything he stood for, rafalski?
- rafalski0
It's largely based on Che's own writings, Kuzinski. And I read reviews. But I really want to see it.
Just watched Commandante, Olivier Stone's interview with Castro. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0342… I thought it would've been worse for Stone. He even asks some "almost difficult" questions (surely nothing to make Castro nervous). Castro turns out to be a madman grandpa to me in it and Stone's "Natural Born Killers" style of handheld shooting only enhances it.
I really liked how Jsu Garcia portrayed Che in "The Lost City" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0343… which is probably the best feature film I saw on the subject.
- Khurram0
From what i've read, and the trailor itself, the movie doesn't attempt to sugar coat anything. It seems frank in the depiction of those less than palatable aspects of his life you seek to demonise him with.
I'm sure those who idolise him will see what they want in the film, and those who despise socialism, will be bitter that his views are aired in a film that will surely elicit some sort of sympathy. But thats just the nature of his views, they are sympathetic.
Personally, i think there's something admirable in his naive idealism. His sincericty in wanting to relieve the suffering of the poor of South America. But, at the same time, he wasn't exactly an intellectual heavyweight, and his crass depiction in popular culture has created the image of a messianic figure FAR removed from historical truth.
So what? The film's a biopic of an iconic historical figure. At least that what it seems to be. Plus its Steven Soderbergh, one of the best directors around.
- +1 - Although Soderbergh is hit and miss for me (needs a word with himself about Ocean's 12)babaganush
- caput580
It is easy to misunderstand a "perpetual revolutionary" Che was. On the other hand Fidel is something else and the two are often overlapping through history so things get attributed to both or one of them in a wrong way. I grew up as a communist and I am a member of the Communist Party since the age of 16, that is over 25 years now (yes I'm old I know). I still admire Che, and as far as negative criticism goes, capitalism has rarely if ever produced an independent thinker and "doer" like Che was.
Gracias por todo, comandante.
- I recommend living in Communism then. Not sure about NK, but I heard Cuba naturalizes foreigners easily.rafalski
- I was about to move to Cuba a few years ago, really, but I decided to stay put and work on a revolution.caput58
- Where it is needed. Palestine for instance.caput58
- Ha, I'd rather you stay in Palestine and fight the good fight there caput!Khurram
- Me too. It is needed here. Thanks.caput58
- rafalski0
"Personally, i think there's something admirable in his naive idealism."
He introduced communism to Cuba, under a spell of Soviet Union achievements. By late 50's it was known for decades this was the system that had murdered multiples of what Hitler ever managed to kill.
Idealism? Yes, and if he wasn't dumb, it seems obvious he was completely loco.
It sure can be fascinating. A realistic movie on Che the mad killer he was - that story has great potential.- how about a realistic movie on how many people were killed by capitalism or in the name of...caput58
- 'multiples of what Hitler ever manged to kill'.Come on man! - they didn't even have the efficency to despach like the Nazis!babaganush
- Nazisbabaganush
- Ukrainian Genocide, this is just the tip of Soviet count:
http://www.faminegen…rafalski - Vietnam War
http://en.wikipedia.…caput58 - We're getting ridiculous with this, but you can't top this:
http://en.wikipedia.…rafalski - Bush belongs to the same hall of fame with Che, Hitler or Stalin. But just compare living in these 3 countries, where's some freedom?rafalski
- we can play :)
http://en.wikipedia.…caput58 - we can play.. yet you started this "comparing death counts" game?Khurram
- The Indians were killed by catholics, not capitalists! And unknown viruses they brought..
..and over a few centuries :]rafalski - haha, you nit-pick one side, and generalise the other. This is how death statistics work...Khurram
- Statistically, commies did in 100 million per century.
Then.. you sure they called it capitalism in 1492?rafalski - Another thing worth noting, communism targets their own people.rafalski
- mmm, yes, "statistically". So do Belgians in the Congo count as capitalism?
http://en.wikipedia.…Khurram - http://en.wikipedia.…Khurram
- "communism targets their own people." Well, you can say that about any sort of totalitarianism.Khurram
- well, you can argue on when it counts as capitalism or not, but who still has "in god we trust" on their money?caput58
- and yes, belgian congo is pure capitalism even if not labeled as... app. 10 million people!caput58
- prolly closer to 20million, but whose counting? and why??Khurram
- Khurram0
Excuse me, you seem to be confusing Soviet-style economic policies of 5-year plans and collectivisation of agriculture, with the blood thirsty excesses of Stalinism and Stalin's purges.
He was heavily critical of the Soviet Union, which is what led to his falling out with Castro. He denounced the USSR in a speech given in Algiers in which he expressed his view that the Northern Hemisphere, led by the US in the West and the Soviet Union in the East, was the exploiter of the Southern Hemisphere.
If anything, he was an anti-imperliast before he was anything else, and shunned the comfort and trappings of state power to fight for, what he perceived as, other people's freedom.
- rafalski0
Yet he wanted to name his son Vladimir, after V.I. Lenin (in 1955 as far I remember).
Castro wasn't even a communist until he realized Kennedy was not going to be friends with him.
- Khurram0
haha, Yeah, fucking hell, that's like name your kid Hitler.
- No, Hitler doesn't hold a candle to Lenin's death count.rafalski
- BOLLOX!Khurram
- http://en.wikipedia.…
You might be right. I lost count.rafalski - I AM right. Lenin killed a few, mainly due to failure economic policies and because heKhurram
- was fighting a civil war started by the right (the Whites). He even experimented with democracy, aww, his heart was in teh right placeKhurram
- in the right place. But Hitler, he came to power on a platform of extermination. Qualitatively differentKhurram
- i'd say.Khurram
- Lenin killed a few - "millions". I know, these small side notes don't let you write all the words.rafalski
- yes, but, in a war? in a revolution? in a civil war? its a BIT different to the Nazis state extermination machineKhurram
- Khurram0
btw, I'm naming my son Mao, but please, don't hate me for it rafal...
:-/
- forbes0
I read the autobiography of che and it seems to me that he fought against the american imperialism that was sweeping through south america and other areas. As seen in motorcycle diaries - his ideologies formed having witness first-hand the injustices of the poor. Poor, sick people getting shafted left, right and centre by american owned corporations that only saw dollar bills and not social and economic impacts in a completely different country.
Its like apartheid story in south africa, you can only take so much of the crap thats handed to you on a daily basis until you resort to violence.
Alot of the comments on this board is exactly how id expect americans to respond, having only been exposed to one side of the story by CNN, FOX etc. What about the genocides that america carried out in south america in the 50's? did they tell you that?!
im not glorifying CHE at all. Im not a communist, but i admit theres some beauty in the fact that you can go to Cuba and not see ONE SINGLE MACDONALDS RESTAURANT!. For the record a large majority of the locals love living in Cuba and idolise che.
Communism on a global scale can never work and thats been proven. but in cuba it works for them, they like it. I just wish americans would leave alone the countries that doesnt match their own ideologies!
you can tell me exactly how many people che is responsible for killing, but americans kill twice as many. If one country build one bomb, america will build ten.
Bush said on tv yesterday he didnt know what that guys 'beef' was when he threw his shoes at him. Pure ignorance plain and fucking simple
- paraselene0
"For the record a large majority of the locals love living in Cuba and idolise che."
oh they do, do they now?
- rafalski0
So Americans killing twice as many make Che look good? I never said Bush was a good guy. They're the same kind to me.
Cuban communism sure works for them. They all make the same $15 a month, which even Raul Castro admits is not enough to survive. They have free health care that works for tourists and Michael Moore, but has waiting lists for seriously ill locals. The way up the list is an envelope filled with cash passed under the table (just like it was and still is in most post communist states).
For a few years Cubans have been allowed to travel outside the country - only if they have a foreign sponsor accepted by the state.
For about a year they are allowed to own mobile phones. Not because the state wants to give them freedom, but because the state wants the money they get from families abroad. The network is state-owned. As I said earlier, internet at home indicates it is a police snitch of some kind, hope that changed in the last year.That's some freedom they have there, innit?
There's secret police snitches everywhere. Locals will only tell you what they think of the system if they trust you and are sure nobody else hears it. Then they tell you things like that there is hunger in places where tourists don't go.
Communism corrupted everyone's minds, like it always does. Corruption isn't a pathology there, it is the way of life.
Cubans rob the state in every possible way. There are security guards in stores, their role is to watch the vendors, not just shoppers.This system cannot sustain itself, that's why it only relied on Soviet sponsorship. After Soviet money influx stopped, they had, after a few years of extreme poverty, moved to becoming a tourist resort. Cuba would hardly survive if it weren't for Chavez financial support. A goodt outcome of tourism is they can at last talk to foreigners.
The funniest thing about Cuban communism is that it is actually pure fiction these days. Since you can't survive on your wage, everyone is into some grey market activity, usually involving tourists who are walking ATMs. You cannot sell your home/apartment, but people do sell them and write unofficial contracts, hoping they'll hold up in future. Officially, the ownership doesn't change.
It is one of the most capitalist countries nowadays, even the state (or "La Revolucion" as they refer to it) is capitalist like no European country would be: even if you find a foreign sponsor who will pay so you can leave the country - you have to work for "The Revolution" for a few years first in order to pay for your education. Brilliant!
- forbes0
rafalski - Obviously i didnt know the state that cuba are in nowadays, thanks for sharing.
I hope i got across that i was referring to the situation back then when che was alive. I dont agree with communism but what i dont agree with are powerful, wealthy countries imposing their own ideologies, beliefs, ethics and culture onto a poorer country that doesnt want that kind of thing in the first place.
i mean what right do we have, to barge in different country and start telling them how to run their own country?
Im not anti-american at all but but Amercia has done precisely this for decades with the use of violence and money. You guys just dont know/didnt hear/ignore this.
Saddam Hussein was one massive cunt i agree. He deserved to be executed but as bad as he was, his dictatorship held the country that has several split factions (sunni's, shias etc) that can trace their vendettas back centuries ago, from spilling into a massive bloodbath that it is now.
democracy works fine for us, i agree communism is wrong, but a country might decide that communism works for them. If it does then fine! its not our right to tell them otherwise.
- caput580
Western style capitalism sure works for you, rafalski. You all make a fair amount of money, based on a "fair" system of humanity and equality for everyone. You don't have free health care and it doesn't work neither for tourists or Michael Moore (who is an American, I guess), but you still have waiting lists for seriously ill locals and high health care bills while people are turned away and denied health care if they are, hmm, poor? The way up the list is based on social status with cash passed ON the table (just like it was and still is in most capitalist countries).
You are allowed to freely travel outside the country - except the ones you invade, there you are not safe, and the number of those is rising, mind you.
You are allowed to own mobile phones. Not because the state wants to give you freedom, but because the state wants to listen to your conversations at will. The networks are privately owned but heavily subsidized by low interest loans from the government (read: your tax money built the network that is profiting from you). As I said earlier, internet at home indicates it is probably monitored by the home security office of some kind.That's some freedom you have there, innit?
There's secret police everywhere. Locals will not tell you anything because they are mostly uninformed. Sometimes they tell you things like that there is hunger in places like inner city ghettos where tourists don't go.
Capitalism corrupted everyone's minds, like it always did. Corruption isn't a pathology there, it is the way of life.
Capitalists rob the people in every possible way, while the state knows about it and assists them. It is called the free economy or the new world order, take a pick. There are security guards everywhere and if you fit racial profiling, my oh my...This system cannot sustain itself, that's why it only relies on the business world sponsorship. After that stops, and after a few years of extreme poverty, maybe you will understand. The U.S. would hardly survive if it weren't for third world countries cheap resources. A good outcome of tourism is you can at last talk to people with different opinions.
The funniest thing about capitalism is that it is actually pure fiction these days. Since soon you won't be able survive on your wage, most of you will get fired anyway and then what? You won't be able sell your home/apartment, the bank will foreclose on you, hoping they'll bring in profit in the future. Officially, the ownership doesn't ever change.
In the West, mostly the U.S. most of you will take up student loans and pay them for the rest of your lives, and that is a true mark of an advanced society. Brilliant!
- designbot0
"You are allowed to own mobile phones. Not because the state wants to give you freedom, but because the state wants to listen to your conversations at will. The networks are privately owned but heavily subsidized by low interest loans from the government (read: your tax money built the network that is profiting from you). As I said earlier, internet at home indicates it is probably monitored by the home security office of some kind."
This is a paraniod dillusion at best. Sure since Bush took office, many of our freedoms have been taken away by things like the Patriot act, and Homeland security, but to say things like "you are allowed to own mobile phones...because the state wants to listen to your conversation at will" is pretty far fetched. Please stop getting your view of America from watching Michael Moore films.
- i have never heard michael moore say something like this, fyispifflink
