Che - The Movie
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- OSFA0
Finally watched it last night and I'm not gonna get political. Instead, I wanted to share that Benicio Del Toro's performance is excellent. That's it.
- fooler20
I tried to watch CHE last night but fell asleep twice during the first disc. I'll try again since I really have no clue who the guy was or what he stood for.
- He sold Rage Against the Machine shirts for a living, thirty plus years before they were around. He was THAT cool.harlequino
- hahahaOSFA
- OSFA0
wow, this thread really got interesting....
but since we're talking about upcoming movies, has anyone here seen Pink Panther II?
- imnotadesigner0
when is it in theaters?
- rafalski0
Nice caput58, I never gave up either, I love how you present my stance as defeat :) I threw rocks at commie police, weren't you the one who gave up to the myth of the system you grew up in? ;)
I moved to rainy capitalist Ireland rather than sunny communist-nationalist Catalonia I love! - how's that for living by my ideals? ;)But don't worry, recent bailouts render western democracies more communist than ever, a Socialist International communism fathers dreamt of or One World Government other totalitarians plan for us (same thing in the end) are nearer than ever - Soderbergh, Stone and the likes are here to help it happen :)
BTW, I knew I shouldn't trust Soderbergh after the happy ending he gave "Solaris" :]
- harlequino0
Soderbergh's a pretty smart director. I hope that he has taken as much of an objective approach to the material as is possible. Despite what side of the fence you are on with regard to who Che Guevara was and the things he did, and what he did or did not stand for, I think figures like him are interesting enough that you can make a film or tell a story about them and it's not automatically a glorification of their life and deeds.
- imnotadesigner0
When it was playing here at the Toronto Film fest it had to be shown during two day. I heard its like 6 hours long.
- caput580
Well, rafalski, thanks for the effort. While your text does not make your points any stronger either, I do agree on the freedom thing (at least something).
I grew up, probably, in the same kind of communism you did, but somehow I did not acquire the same hatred towards it you did. I was that same teenager you talked about. But still, I didn't give up.
I don't blame you for that, although, as romantic as it may seem, giving up is easy. Opportunism, in my view is the biggest enemy of that same freedom you are talking about. Capitalism just found a perfect way to tap into that, while personal responsibility towards the community and your surroundings is virtually zero. I know I am a lone voice in the big noise of profits to be made, but still, I prefer that always over "going with the flow" because it is comfortable at the moment.
The struggle for freedom NEVER ENDS, my friend.
- Chief0
http://www.reason.com/blog/show/…
this was sent to me by a guy i work with, born and raised in cuba by spanish parents, after we had a discussion about this movie. he doesn't understand the love affair with che at all.
- zenmasterfoo0
Nicely written. I have similar memories of Caracas where I was born and raised. To see it now, in it's current state of ruin, is... well, depressing and sad. It's a perspective like yours Rafalski that we need every so often to balance what we really want to see from what is really there.
- However, I can't say I'm not biased, can I?..rafalski
- no. but biased with an informed perspective that isn't rdriven by hollywoods "idea" of history.zenmasterfoo
- rafalski0
Thank you for such attentively crafted rebuttal, caput58, but the comparisons you gave don't make your point stronger.
Having a monitored internet we have is as bad as not having any and yet being subject to even more surveillance in Cuba?
Is not being able to to go to an unsafe country (sounds like common sense) as bad as not being able to leave yours at all?
Come on..I don't care what the system is called. What I care for is freedom. Freedom to choose. Todays' western world is no paradise. But you do have options, including opting out. In communism you don't. Freedom comes at the price of responsibility for your mistakes - this is what people don't want and they want the state to take care of them. I still choose freedom over that.
As opposed to majority of people I discuss here with, I have lived in communism. I was 15 when it failed. I like to think I helped it fail, I threw rocks at commie police as a kid..
I have very clear memories of that period. It was a shithole that is hard to describe. It was Kafka'esquely muddy and slimey. It was just as grey as the west pictured it. We were slaves with no option out. In order to be granted a passport (only valid for a single visit, you had to return it immediately upon return) you had to be nice to the police, in many cases sign loyalty letter they could blackmail you with later on.
The worst thing about communism was what it did to people. Corruption, as I wrote about Cuba - was a norm. So was stealing from the system. When everything's everyone's, it's nobody's. This mentality is still there - this is the worst. It spoiled generations.There is corruption in the west of course - but it doesn't affect regular people, only those in power. In communism everyone bribes. I saw bribes handed as a kid on a daily basis, more than once. It was nothing big, just a normal thing.
I speak on Cuba, because I went there to see it myself. My sad conclusion is it is exactly the same type of shithole I grew up in, only the setting and the music are much nicer - so are cigars. The saddest part is you can see in its ruins, it was one of the most beautiful places on Earth before the revolution.
I didn't stay in hotels, only at people's houses. I talked to people. They were curious about post-communist countries as well, so we had a lot to talk about. I saw behaviours that would be hard to explain to someone who hasn't lived in communism. Why are salespeople so rude? I know. I just know, I lived in this. It was all the same, down to omnipresent propaganda posters glorifying the Communist Party and so on.
I saw store vendors blatantly cheat their employer (La Revolucion) and pocket money from sales (I recognized the techniques instantly). I saw groups of people, some in their official uniforms get organized to rob the state as part of their lazy daily routine (funny stories if you don't have to live there). I saw a peanut vendor on the street bribe a police officer, so he doesn't notice the vendor (selling peanuts on your own is illegal). All this in the short time I spent there just walking around and travelling.
I didn't see a happy adult person, even if they were dancing on the street. I did see happy kids, little ones.
Teenagers on local buses.. this was the hard part. They looked at me with the same eyes I had looked at random (rare, though) foreigners when I was a kid. I used to be the same teenager. I knew the feeling they expressed. It wasn't envy exactly.. it was a very sad feeling foreigners come from a different world you're not allowed to access, where being able to travel the world is part of normalcy.I never said western world lifestyle was the perfect solution, it is quite fucked up. But proposing communism instead is going out of the fire right into a frying pan.
Every American has an option to leave the country and a way to earn enough for the ticket. Cubans don't. This alone is a world of difference.
- designbot0
"You are allowed to own mobile phones. Not because the state wants to give you freedom, but because the state wants to listen to your conversations at will. The networks are privately owned but heavily subsidized by low interest loans from the government (read: your tax money built the network that is profiting from you). As I said earlier, internet at home indicates it is probably monitored by the home security office of some kind."
This is a paraniod dillusion at best. Sure since Bush took office, many of our freedoms have been taken away by things like the Patriot act, and Homeland security, but to say things like "you are allowed to own mobile phones...because the state wants to listen to your conversation at will" is pretty far fetched. Please stop getting your view of America from watching Michael Moore films.
- i have never heard michael moore say something like this, fyispifflink
- caput580
Western style capitalism sure works for you, rafalski. You all make a fair amount of money, based on a "fair" system of humanity and equality for everyone. You don't have free health care and it doesn't work neither for tourists or Michael Moore (who is an American, I guess), but you still have waiting lists for seriously ill locals and high health care bills while people are turned away and denied health care if they are, hmm, poor? The way up the list is based on social status with cash passed ON the table (just like it was and still is in most capitalist countries).
You are allowed to freely travel outside the country - except the ones you invade, there you are not safe, and the number of those is rising, mind you.
You are allowed to own mobile phones. Not because the state wants to give you freedom, but because the state wants to listen to your conversations at will. The networks are privately owned but heavily subsidized by low interest loans from the government (read: your tax money built the network that is profiting from you). As I said earlier, internet at home indicates it is probably monitored by the home security office of some kind.That's some freedom you have there, innit?
There's secret police everywhere. Locals will not tell you anything because they are mostly uninformed. Sometimes they tell you things like that there is hunger in places like inner city ghettos where tourists don't go.
Capitalism corrupted everyone's minds, like it always did. Corruption isn't a pathology there, it is the way of life.
Capitalists rob the people in every possible way, while the state knows about it and assists them. It is called the free economy or the new world order, take a pick. There are security guards everywhere and if you fit racial profiling, my oh my...This system cannot sustain itself, that's why it only relies on the business world sponsorship. After that stops, and after a few years of extreme poverty, maybe you will understand. The U.S. would hardly survive if it weren't for third world countries cheap resources. A good outcome of tourism is you can at last talk to people with different opinions.
The funniest thing about capitalism is that it is actually pure fiction these days. Since soon you won't be able survive on your wage, most of you will get fired anyway and then what? You won't be able sell your home/apartment, the bank will foreclose on you, hoping they'll bring in profit in the future. Officially, the ownership doesn't ever change.
In the West, mostly the U.S. most of you will take up student loans and pay them for the rest of your lives, and that is a true mark of an advanced society. Brilliant!
- forbes0
rafalski - Obviously i didnt know the state that cuba are in nowadays, thanks for sharing.
I hope i got across that i was referring to the situation back then when che was alive. I dont agree with communism but what i dont agree with are powerful, wealthy countries imposing their own ideologies, beliefs, ethics and culture onto a poorer country that doesnt want that kind of thing in the first place.
i mean what right do we have, to barge in different country and start telling them how to run their own country?
Im not anti-american at all but but Amercia has done precisely this for decades with the use of violence and money. You guys just dont know/didnt hear/ignore this.
Saddam Hussein was one massive cunt i agree. He deserved to be executed but as bad as he was, his dictatorship held the country that has several split factions (sunni's, shias etc) that can trace their vendettas back centuries ago, from spilling into a massive bloodbath that it is now.
democracy works fine for us, i agree communism is wrong, but a country might decide that communism works for them. If it does then fine! its not our right to tell them otherwise.
- rafalski0
So Americans killing twice as many make Che look good? I never said Bush was a good guy. They're the same kind to me.
Cuban communism sure works for them. They all make the same $15 a month, which even Raul Castro admits is not enough to survive. They have free health care that works for tourists and Michael Moore, but has waiting lists for seriously ill locals. The way up the list is an envelope filled with cash passed under the table (just like it was and still is in most post communist states).
For a few years Cubans have been allowed to travel outside the country - only if they have a foreign sponsor accepted by the state.
For about a year they are allowed to own mobile phones. Not because the state wants to give them freedom, but because the state wants the money they get from families abroad. The network is state-owned. As I said earlier, internet at home indicates it is a police snitch of some kind, hope that changed in the last year.That's some freedom they have there, innit?
There's secret police snitches everywhere. Locals will only tell you what they think of the system if they trust you and are sure nobody else hears it. Then they tell you things like that there is hunger in places where tourists don't go.
Communism corrupted everyone's minds, like it always does. Corruption isn't a pathology there, it is the way of life.
Cubans rob the state in every possible way. There are security guards in stores, their role is to watch the vendors, not just shoppers.This system cannot sustain itself, that's why it only relied on Soviet sponsorship. After Soviet money influx stopped, they had, after a few years of extreme poverty, moved to becoming a tourist resort. Cuba would hardly survive if it weren't for Chavez financial support. A goodt outcome of tourism is they can at last talk to foreigners.
The funniest thing about Cuban communism is that it is actually pure fiction these days. Since you can't survive on your wage, everyone is into some grey market activity, usually involving tourists who are walking ATMs. You cannot sell your home/apartment, but people do sell them and write unofficial contracts, hoping they'll hold up in future. Officially, the ownership doesn't change.
It is one of the most capitalist countries nowadays, even the state (or "La Revolucion" as they refer to it) is capitalist like no European country would be: even if you find a foreign sponsor who will pay so you can leave the country - you have to work for "The Revolution" for a few years first in order to pay for your education. Brilliant!
- paraselene0
"For the record a large majority of the locals love living in Cuba and idolise che."
oh they do, do they now?
- forbes0
I read the autobiography of che and it seems to me that he fought against the american imperialism that was sweeping through south america and other areas. As seen in motorcycle diaries - his ideologies formed having witness first-hand the injustices of the poor. Poor, sick people getting shafted left, right and centre by american owned corporations that only saw dollar bills and not social and economic impacts in a completely different country.
Its like apartheid story in south africa, you can only take so much of the crap thats handed to you on a daily basis until you resort to violence.
Alot of the comments on this board is exactly how id expect americans to respond, having only been exposed to one side of the story by CNN, FOX etc. What about the genocides that america carried out in south america in the 50's? did they tell you that?!
im not glorifying CHE at all. Im not a communist, but i admit theres some beauty in the fact that you can go to Cuba and not see ONE SINGLE MACDONALDS RESTAURANT!. For the record a large majority of the locals love living in Cuba and idolise che.
Communism on a global scale can never work and thats been proven. but in cuba it works for them, they like it. I just wish americans would leave alone the countries that doesnt match their own ideologies!
you can tell me exactly how many people che is responsible for killing, but americans kill twice as many. If one country build one bomb, america will build ten.
Bush said on tv yesterday he didnt know what that guys 'beef' was when he threw his shoes at him. Pure ignorance plain and fucking simple
