Che - The Movie
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- rafalski0
Thank you for such attentively crafted rebuttal, caput58, but the comparisons you gave don't make your point stronger.
Having a monitored internet we have is as bad as not having any and yet being subject to even more surveillance in Cuba?
Is not being able to to go to an unsafe country (sounds like common sense) as bad as not being able to leave yours at all?
Come on..I don't care what the system is called. What I care for is freedom. Freedom to choose. Todays' western world is no paradise. But you do have options, including opting out. In communism you don't. Freedom comes at the price of responsibility for your mistakes - this is what people don't want and they want the state to take care of them. I still choose freedom over that.
As opposed to majority of people I discuss here with, I have lived in communism. I was 15 when it failed. I like to think I helped it fail, I threw rocks at commie police as a kid..
I have very clear memories of that period. It was a shithole that is hard to describe. It was Kafka'esquely muddy and slimey. It was just as grey as the west pictured it. We were slaves with no option out. In order to be granted a passport (only valid for a single visit, you had to return it immediately upon return) you had to be nice to the police, in many cases sign loyalty letter they could blackmail you with later on.
The worst thing about communism was what it did to people. Corruption, as I wrote about Cuba - was a norm. So was stealing from the system. When everything's everyone's, it's nobody's. This mentality is still there - this is the worst. It spoiled generations.There is corruption in the west of course - but it doesn't affect regular people, only those in power. In communism everyone bribes. I saw bribes handed as a kid on a daily basis, more than once. It was nothing big, just a normal thing.
I speak on Cuba, because I went there to see it myself. My sad conclusion is it is exactly the same type of shithole I grew up in, only the setting and the music are much nicer - so are cigars. The saddest part is you can see in its ruins, it was one of the most beautiful places on Earth before the revolution.
I didn't stay in hotels, only at people's houses. I talked to people. They were curious about post-communist countries as well, so we had a lot to talk about. I saw behaviours that would be hard to explain to someone who hasn't lived in communism. Why are salespeople so rude? I know. I just know, I lived in this. It was all the same, down to omnipresent propaganda posters glorifying the Communist Party and so on.
I saw store vendors blatantly cheat their employer (La Revolucion) and pocket money from sales (I recognized the techniques instantly). I saw groups of people, some in their official uniforms get organized to rob the state as part of their lazy daily routine (funny stories if you don't have to live there). I saw a peanut vendor on the street bribe a police officer, so he doesn't notice the vendor (selling peanuts on your own is illegal). All this in the short time I spent there just walking around and travelling.
I didn't see a happy adult person, even if they were dancing on the street. I did see happy kids, little ones.
Teenagers on local buses.. this was the hard part. They looked at me with the same eyes I had looked at random (rare, though) foreigners when I was a kid. I used to be the same teenager. I knew the feeling they expressed. It wasn't envy exactly.. it was a very sad feeling foreigners come from a different world you're not allowed to access, where being able to travel the world is part of normalcy.I never said western world lifestyle was the perfect solution, it is quite fucked up. But proposing communism instead is going out of the fire right into a frying pan.
Every American has an option to leave the country and a way to earn enough for the ticket. Cubans don't. This alone is a world of difference.
- zenmasterfoo0
Nicely written. I have similar memories of Caracas where I was born and raised. To see it now, in it's current state of ruin, is... well, depressing and sad. It's a perspective like yours Rafalski that we need every so often to balance what we really want to see from what is really there.
- However, I can't say I'm not biased, can I?..rafalski
- no. but biased with an informed perspective that isn't rdriven by hollywoods "idea" of history.zenmasterfoo
- Chief0
http://www.reason.com/blog/show/…
this was sent to me by a guy i work with, born and raised in cuba by spanish parents, after we had a discussion about this movie. he doesn't understand the love affair with che at all.
- caput580
Well, rafalski, thanks for the effort. While your text does not make your points any stronger either, I do agree on the freedom thing (at least something).
I grew up, probably, in the same kind of communism you did, but somehow I did not acquire the same hatred towards it you did. I was that same teenager you talked about. But still, I didn't give up.
I don't blame you for that, although, as romantic as it may seem, giving up is easy. Opportunism, in my view is the biggest enemy of that same freedom you are talking about. Capitalism just found a perfect way to tap into that, while personal responsibility towards the community and your surroundings is virtually zero. I know I am a lone voice in the big noise of profits to be made, but still, I prefer that always over "going with the flow" because it is comfortable at the moment.
The struggle for freedom NEVER ENDS, my friend.
- imnotadesigner0
When it was playing here at the Toronto Film fest it had to be shown during two day. I heard its like 6 hours long.
- harlequino0
Soderbergh's a pretty smart director. I hope that he has taken as much of an objective approach to the material as is possible. Despite what side of the fence you are on with regard to who Che Guevara was and the things he did, and what he did or did not stand for, I think figures like him are interesting enough that you can make a film or tell a story about them and it's not automatically a glorification of their life and deeds.
- rafalski0
Nice caput58, I never gave up either, I love how you present my stance as defeat :) I threw rocks at commie police, weren't you the one who gave up to the myth of the system you grew up in? ;)
I moved to rainy capitalist Ireland rather than sunny communist-nationalist Catalonia I love! - how's that for living by my ideals? ;)But don't worry, recent bailouts render western democracies more communist than ever, a Socialist International communism fathers dreamt of or One World Government other totalitarians plan for us (same thing in the end) are nearer than ever - Soderbergh, Stone and the likes are here to help it happen :)
BTW, I knew I shouldn't trust Soderbergh after the happy ending he gave "Solaris" :]
- imnotadesigner0
when is it in theaters?
- OSFA0
wow, this thread really got interesting....
but since we're talking about upcoming movies, has anyone here seen Pink Panther II?
- fooler20
I tried to watch CHE last night but fell asleep twice during the first disc. I'll try again since I really have no clue who the guy was or what he stood for.
- He sold Rage Against the Machine shirts for a living, thirty plus years before they were around. He was THAT cool.harlequino
- hahahaOSFA
- OSFA0
Finally watched it last night and I'm not gonna get political. Instead, I wanted to share that Benicio Del Toro's performance is excellent. That's it.