Politics
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- ********0
^ Exactly the point I've been trying to make here. That the government is corrupt, fucked-up, lying and cheating. But you all think that Obama and his cronies are "above it all"?
No. They ALL have their fingers up in our assholes. So, the big question is, what are you going to do about it? Most Americans are too fucking lazy, and just don't give a flying fuck.
Of course, this is exactly what the government is counting on. At least the "Teabaggers" rose up, and gave a rat's ass about calling those dip-shits out. You should actually be thankful for this, if even in a somewhat removed way.
- Too bad they had no idea what they were talking about...ukit
- Untrue.********
- ukit0
Let's not pretend there's not a difference here. Bush basically put up a sign that says, don't apply unless you're a corrupt lobbyist.
Obama at least created a policy that says, no lobbying within 2 years of working for the government. He issued exemptions for various people, but only about ten in the entire administration. Not perfect but a huge improvement on the hundreds that worked for Bush.
- TheBlueOne0
"But you all think that Obama and his cronies are "above it all"?"
Um, no dude. That is where you have you're particular ideological blinders on. You seem to think we're a bunch of Obama fans here. I don't think that is true at all, but you seem to think so. In fact you seem to come in all hopped up on tea bagger adreneline, all guns blazing curses everyday on cue, and it's fucking tiresome.
Am I glad that Bush is gone? Fuck yeah. Does Obama on some levels - as America's first black president represent some sort of fundamental change in our society? Yup. Is his rhetoric on hope and community a nice counter tonic to the selfishness of the neo-con crap we've been living with since the Reagan years? Yup. But at this point it's nice rhetoric. No one man is going to change a trillion dollar government of 250 million people in a hundred days. Not. Going. To. Happen.
I could say that Obama has deeply disappointed me, in regards to his failure to take the financial industry to task, with his seeming insistence on transparency, but adds no justice to that transparency, to his rollback on Afghanistan and torture investigation.
I COULD say I was disappointed, but I'm not, because I never expected this from him. He's one man, well-intentioned or not, and the System rules here. The last man who tried to truly buck the system from that office ended up with a bullet in his brain on a Dallas street.
It's still early. Kennedy changed after being burnt by the Bay of Pigs and . Will Obama? Don't know. We'll see.
I don't think anyone here has any belief in "Obama as the One", but you seem convinced that there is some weird mystical cloud of these people out there, because that's the story the right wing propaganda machine feeds you and you eat that shit up.
You don't even know the definition of fucking "socialism" but you employ the word every chance you get. You think these "tea baggers" were some sort of independent "rising up" when it was manufactured straight up out of a rightwing populist think tank. You're blind baby, you're blind.
I know I'm definitely NOT a democrat and certainly NOT a republican. I see out system as fucked, but you have two choices drop out, or try to change it. But you have to face up to it for what it is. And the corporate / lobby media forces the either/or dichotomy down everyone's throats and frames the debate - Left vs. Right, Conservative vs. Liberal, Acorn vs. Teabaggers..whatever. It's all bullshit. You GR have clearly bought hook line and sinker one side of that debate
- Well said and good to know (minus your suggestion that i'm a hook-n-sinker guy). I am nobody's fool.********
- Well said and good to know (minus your suggestion that i'm a hook-n-sinker guy). I am nobody's fool.
- ukit0
Did I miss somewhere that Republicans want a ban on lobbyists? I thought it was part of the free market system...
- designbot0
TBO:
"You think these "tea baggers" were some sort of independent "rising up" when it was manufactured straight up out of a rightwing populist think tank. You're blind baby, you're blind."The irony of this comment is that it sounds like some snippet you would get from the "left wing populist tank". Blue, I am curious to know why exactly you think that the tea parties were some right wing manufactured event? Do you suppose they would actually have the ability, to collaborate (and actually get thousands of people to attend) tea parties all over the US? You know I went to a tea party, and I know several people that attended one in my own city, and I can assure you the motivation to attend had nothing to do with propaganda from any conservative talk radio or other media.
So with all do respect, unless you can give any real evidence for your claim, it's nothing more than a conspiracy theory. There were lots of genuinely concerned and angry people out that day, people who (even if you don't agree with them) care deeply about their country.
- Apparently someone missed the 24/7 Fox "News" coverage for three weeks of this...TheBlueOne
- ..otherwise known as "propaganda"..TheBlueOne
- Unless you want to point me to another protest that Fox covered with equal fervor and hype..TheBlueOne
- ..and at cost to their programming schedule.TheBlueOne
- Not questioning peoples motivation for attending but Rick Santelli was really the guy or figurehead to get that started.IRNlun6
- ...startedIRNlun6
- http://www.youtube.c…IRNlun6
- TheBlueOne0
Here's the pro-immigration rally from a few years back:
Here's a 2004 anti-war rally:
100,000+ people. All anri-government"
Amount of coverage by media outlets: About Zero. Especially Fox.
But the "Anti Government" tea baggers? It was all Fox covered for two weeks.
But I guess that's not "real evidence" in your world.
- TheBlueOne0
While there might be some legitimate grass-roots to the whole Tea Bagger thing, if you don't see it as co-opted by the rightwing propaganda machine for it's own purposes you're really blind.
The same way the same people co-opted the christian right with promises of "family values" and "no abortions" and never, ever delivered. Kinda left those people with the equivalent of cum stains on the blue dress.
- ukit0
I love this
"If people realized the consequences of sex, nobody would be having sex."
- designbot0
In regards to Fox news specifically, I see your point about coverage. I would NOT disagree with you at all that Fox news is more conservative. Every news source is biased to some degree....bbcnews for example didn't have one mention about the tea parties (under U.S. news), but felt the need to talk about some other pointless topics (I posted them in this thread, they're buried somewhere if you care to dig them up).
BUT the media coverage of the tea parties was extremely slim, except FOX. I know this to be fact, as I scoured the news channels for several weeks to see the coverage. Most media gave about 30 seconds of coverage to the tea parties.
So even if what you were saying about excessive media coverage was true (when I know first-hand I saw very little) Making the leap of faith from heavy media coverage to the idea that the tea parties were "manufactured straight up out of a rightwing populist think tank" holds no ground.
Another large protest in recent memory is of course the protests against the Iraq war (wish I could of been there btw) received large amounts of media coverage. Should I suppose it was some left wing anti-Bush propaganda movement manufactured by the left?
- DrBombay0
those tea parties weren't very large, to be fair. In comparison with other protests.
- This is a fair point. I still think they were large enough to warrant attention.designbot
- Definitely attention. Not 24/7 coverage on Fox,TheBlueOne
- DrBombay0
Designbot, haven't you said in the past that you son't consider yourself to be a conservative? Why do you constantly argue from that point of view?
- designbot0
Dr.b I happen to hold to some conservative views on certain issues. A large part of this stems from my faith (Christian, as you are well aware) and it just so happens on issues like abortion and some other biggies the conservative side best represents my views. There are lots of other issues where my views are certainly not conservative (war & military for example)
- I have agreed with you and TBO on several occasions.designbot
- Did the Republicans deliver to the Christian community what they promised?TheBlueOne
- Even when they had the entire Congress and the Presidency?TheBlueOne
- Just asking.TheBlueOne
- Not at all TBO, the Bush admin played the religion card propaganda as a way to exploit the Christians for backing.designbot
- and it worked.designbot
- ********0
As a reminder, on this glorious day, thousands of people assembled in each of our 50 states. The Sacramento event was PEACEFUL. HUMBLING. ENCOURAGING. No propaganda. Just true Americans. I should know. I was there. You cannot understand. You were NOT there.
- DrBombay0
Abortion isn't really a political issue, it's red meat.
Conservatives have been pulling that trick out of their hat for 30 years and what has been accomplished? Nothing.- Abortion isn't really a political issue??? Dude, pass that shit your smoking my way.********
- what progress have the conservatives made since 1980?DrBombay
- Abortion isn't really a political issue??? Dude, pass that shit your smoking my way.
- TheBlueOne0
"protests against the Iraq war received large amounts of media coverage."
On what planet? On what planet did a news station spend hour after hour interviewing Anti-Iraq War proponents to get their side of the story? I seem to remember a one to two minute mention and then onto the local weather. It's simply not comparable to the coverage of the Tea Parties via Fox.
To reiterate, I'm not saying that their are some sort of legitimate beef at the center of the Tea Party thing, nor am I saying that their isn't some real grass roots folks out there, what I'm saying is that a) there aren't enough people involved in it to warrant the coverage it got and b) it was clearly co-opted by the rightwing propaganda arm.
And don't take my insistence on this as to preclude the idea that the left doesn't do this as well, because it does it with certainty. Although, and this is me going out on a hunch, because those on the right tend to psychologically be more attuned and comfortable to top-down structures, their propaganda seems to reflect that mode. Makes it easier to spot sometimes. Where the left propaganda tends to be more amorphous.
I've been reading a bit of Randolph Bourne lately (I know "who?"). Early 20th century political intellectual who's main idea was that the two parties are in collusion with each other to a large extent. Sure they via for power between them, but both really only offer the barest of alternatives and the ones outside that system (aiming for a corporate-military strategy) just don't get heard. So, the system went after Kennedy when he went against the military ultimately and opened back channels to Castro and Krushev looking for a peace strategy, the dems undermined Carter's presidency when he was trying to buck the system, etc. Even Reagan went a bit off the reservation with his talks with Gorbachev...you can see Bush 2.0 as a Reagan/Bush 1 do-over where you had the same cast of characters (Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc..) saying, this time, we do it right, we don't "talk to the enemy, we shock and awe them first.").
Anyway, I like Obama as a symbol. As an actual president, I don't expect much. He seems to already be playing to the benefit system, not alot of truly fundamental change going on, just a new coat of paint. But he is a symbol, and might be symbolic of a sea change in the feelings of the American populace at large. As a symbol he might be at the spearhead of a more community centered, pro-active and participatory citizenry, even if the man himself doesn't fulfill those promises. One can hope that a tide is being unleashed to whit those who seek to master it (via co-opting tea parties and anger at the monetary policy on the right or insisting that Obama is truly going to "change" the government on the left) cannot contain it. I hope, but don't expect it. We will see.
For more on Randolph Bourne:
http://www.bigeye.com/rbourne.ht…
http://www.disabilityhistory.org…
http://www.bigeye.com/warstate.h…Not saying this in any way encompasses my thinking on this stuff, just an interesting new angle I have discovered.
Out.
- designbot0
I think we are seeing eye to eye. I wouldn't argue there could have certainly been some exploiting going on in regards to the tea parties, and other movements on the left as you pointed out. If either party see's a way to cease an opportunity, of course they are going to do it. But in both cases, I (like you) still think there is some form of a legitimate movement after the smoke settles.
"the two parties are in collusion with each other to a large extent" I couldn't agree more. At the end of the day I think whatever "side" we are on, we are all puppets to some degree. The propaganda works. Which for me personally, is why I don't cling to a one-sided political ideal.
I'll take a look at those links, thanks.
- TheBlueOne0
"Just true Americans. I should know. I was there. You cannot understand. You were NOT there."
If you don't understand why this sort of rhetoric is frightening, well...
Somehow you "know" what is a "true" American. That knowledge is based on an "interior feeling" from a "singular event" that is, according to your statement, only knowable by those with "direct participation" of it. You exclude from "true" all those who don't hold similar values or experienced what you did.
There is a historical parallel to this mindset, and I don't need to spell it out.
- ukit0
If anyone wants to break the lock on the two party system, support a 3rd party in 2012. The Republicans aren't the only "conservative" party out there.
- ********0
Btw, I just LOVE how Obama announced his new "NATIONAL" emission standards, just after he sufficiently fucked the auto-makers in a royal way. Now forcing the auto-makers to retool and comply to his stated standards. Timely. Planned. Fucked.
- ********0
... And Capitol Hill just voted DOWN moving GITMO prisoners to the US— OOPS!!!