Politics
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- ********0
DrB wrote:
Your shit is biased and completely unfair is my point, this is a worldwide problem. Not Obama'sI say:
Thomas Jefferson thought is was America's problem, and responsibility to defeat the pirates of his time, so what makes Obama's decision any different?
- ********0
- raf0
Afghan war timeline, just connecting handpicked dots (with a strong bias):
2000: Poppy ban
http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORL…
2001: US war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War…
2007, 2008: business as usual
http://www.defence.pk/forums/wor…
http://www.darkgovernment.com/ne…Winning or losing the war is only a matter of perspective - same goes for Iraq which is going to be a major success for some people as long as it is a total mess like it is now.
- TheBlueOne0
"Thomas Jefferson thought is was America's problem, and responsibility to defeat the pirates of his time, so what makes Obama's decision any different?"
I believe Thomas Jefferson was of the opinion that it was in fact in the interest of not only America, but of all it's economic trading partners as well, and sought out international co-operation in the matter - but he did indeed use American influence and muscle to protect the interests of the nation in this matter.
I'm a little unclear on what you mean by saying "what makes Obama's decision any different?" Could you restate?
- don't debate this fucking monkey, tbo.DrBombay
- ah..it's better than spending my time getting irritated. Besides I am hella mellow today...TheBlueOne
- TBO and I are friends now, DrB.********
- ... well, sort of. :-)********
- ha, doubt it.DrBombay
- frenimies.TheBlueOne
- ********0
^ Just wondering what you think Obama should do going forward. Piracy seems to be festering, and imo, poses a national security problem. Additionally, some 240 western hostages remain in the hands of the pirates, and, they have extorted countless millions of dollars via their illegal action.
Also of interest, it is being reported that the US ship recently hijacked, was under "attack" for up to 1 week before they finally boarded.
- bliznutty0
here TBO - money is a "concept"
- TheBlueOne0
Well, the battle is engaged now, so circumstances will simply force Obama and other civilized nations to ramp up the military response. But like I said before I think the proper course, and what I think Obama should do, is respond forcefully militarily both in response to and pre-emptively as possible within the framework of international maritime law, while also pursuing all soft power responses as well.
"Angry pirates vowed retaliation for the deaths, raising fears for the safety of some 230 foreign sailors still held hostage in more than a dozen ships anchored off the coast of lawless Somalia.
"From now on, if we capture foreign ships and their respective countries try to attack us, we will kill them (the hostages)," Jamac Habeb, a 30-year-old pirate, told The Associated Press from one of Somalia's piracy hubs, Eyl. "(U.S. forces have) become our No. 1 enemy."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090…
So in other words, it's on. Cork is now off the bottle.
- I'd expect to see more mercs on ships as well...TheBlueOne
- ukit0
OK, real smart. If they kill hostages they are guaranteed to die themselves.
The whole piracy thing relies on the reluctance of corporations whose boats these are to arm their crew (because their insurance would go up massively), or take action once they are captured (because it's easier to pay the ransom). It would be incredibly stupid for a bunch of guys in boats with second rate weaponry to provoke the world's greatest military power.
- This is an age old problem really. Piracy always returns because it does "work"..TheBlueOne
- So far they have been able to do it because the cost of acting is less than the cost of letting it slide and paying the ransoms.ukit
- But if they continue to provoke, that equation changes quickly...ukit
- right. it works until the returns start being negative.TheBlueOne
- TheBlueOne0
"It would be incredibly stupid for a bunch of guys in boats with second rate weaponry to provoke the world's greatest military power."
Quite honestly, this really isn't as big of danger for the little guys in boats as you think. I'd refer you to some of the deep military thinking on what's called "fourth generation warfare". It's basically what Gates currently and Rumsfeld previously were trying to reformat our military for (also the thinking behind the most recent change in USMC strat doctrine. There's a book published by the marines, you can buy it on Amazon...)
Aircraft carriers and cutting edge stealth aircraft are awesome if you're fighting another military, against guys in rowboats with small arms? Not so much. Especially if their war aims are local and limited in scope.
If this interests you I'd suggest this really good book:
http://www.amazon.com/Transforma…
And also a great blog on this stuff written by a former US Spec Ops guy:
- I still think the pirates would have been better off without this incident happeningukit
- Oh, here's the Marine Corp book I mentioned:
http://www.amazon.co…TheBlueOne - True, true Ukit...but it was bound to happen sooner or later given the circumstances..TheBlueOne
- Oh, here's the marine corp strategy book online [pdf]:
http://www.dtic.mil/…TheBlueOne
- BattleAxe0
4 Pirates in a life raft was a Threat to National Security , wow , reaching there no?
the headline alone is golden , not to mention another "Crisis" drop
"Analysis: Obama scores win on pirate crisis
His administration passes its first critical national security test "
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3018…- hahaha. Way to go MSNBC. Are they trying to be the lefts FOX?tommyo
- Of course. Where have you been tommy? :)TheBlueOne
- I don't watch this kind of news. :)tommyo
- TheBlueOne0
"4 Pirates in a life raft was a Threat to National Security , wow , reaching there no?"
But it's not four pirates in a raft really, is it? It's an entire pirate industry in place with means, method and motive to successfully attack global mercantile shipping.
The Obama passes "critical test" is kinda stretching it. I mean all he did was give the go ahead to use force if it seemed that was the course that seemed most effective to the military on scene. Any president I hope would've done this...I really don't see the "story" in this that both political sides in the US are trying to turn to their respective sides advantage..
- in response to Biden's assertion that Obama would be "tested" in his 1st 100 days.zenmasterfoo
- ukit0
I think it was a win....it's not easy to save a hostage. The Marines performed admirably.
Bush probably would have blown up the boat, killing the hostage, and then attacked Madagascar.
- LOL @ attack Madagascar part...TheBlueOne
- lol********
- You mean that new club down on 14th street?JackRyan
- ********0
TBO, yes, "ironic" was the wrong word choice, "timely" is right. I also think that your rationale is sound (... making the acts themselves pay dearly... and, utilizing all available diplomatic soft power...). Also appreciate the clarification that the French ended said piracy in ernest (with what seemed more like mass-eradication). So thanks again for the EDU. Also, when you say, "cork is now off the bottle", I think you are right again.
Should be real interesting to see where we go from here.
One last thing. Do you believe that the millions of dollars gained by the pirates go to fund terrorism?
- TheBlueOne0
"Do you believe that the millions of dollars gained by the pirates go to fund terrorism? "
Don't know, haven't researched it so much. I would suspect that some does somehow, but probably most of it goes to propping up the pirate regime itself...guns, ammo, pirate salaries, bribes, etc...I think more money funding terrorism comes from opium sales from Afghanistan thru Turkey (look up "Turkey" + "Deep State" on google and you'll be surprised what doesn't get reported in our media) and from private Saudi sources. My hunch is that any money from somalia pirates to terrorists outside of that very local area (e. africa) is probably not worth much.
- Piracy is kinda defined as terrorism, wouldn't you think?DrBombay
- kinda a broad generality there that doesn't help muchTheBlueOne
- are all pirates terrorists? Not sure. Not all terrorists are pirates.TheBlueOne
- ********0
I love you all.
- ********0
Back to the dog:
Did the First Family, knowingly or not, sign a death sentence for shelter dogs? As countless Americans will surly be buying Portuguese Water Dogs— the breed is now undoubtedly in "hyper-trend", which should leave more, and more shelter dogs to become euthanized.Noteworthy, or not?
- Oh puh-leeaseukit
- And you wonder why I get irritated with you.TheBlueOne
- This guy is such a twat.DrBombay
- well... ok. Since you're in a mellow mood, TBO, I'll let this go, for today. :-)********
- ... poor, poor little (death row) puppies though.********
- TheBlueOne0
One last thing on the pirate issue for the day. I think John Robb makes some insightful and probably dead-on commentary on the issue:
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.…
And even I fall pray to the rah-rah US good guys Navy/Marines shoot up them bad guys, rescue the good guy meme. Feels good when you're an American, or even generally a non-pirate person, and the media certainly fuels it, but as Robb reminds us that the whole international use of force stuff is rarely what you think it is. All his points are good, but this one especially so:
"If the company that owned the rescued ship wasn't a US defense contractor, its kidnapping insurance company (likely Lloyds) and its designated crisis representatives (likely Control Risks Group) would have negotiated to pay the pirate's fee to get the hostage back -- as are thousands of kidnappings from Mexico to Colombia to Nigeria to the Gulf of Aden are settled every year. Somali pirates have made tens of millions this way already. Further, in many parts of the world, kidnappers are almost never caught/killed (<5% in Mexico and the same is likely true for Somalia). So, given this backdrop, the Navy's rescue effort was just a sideshow and the industry that made it possible will continue to grow rapidly."
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.…
I try to urge everyone to get beyond how the media and political interest groups frame things left/right, democrat/conservative, etc...it's not even that the truth is "somewhere between them" which is a stupid modern journalistic meme, it's more often the truth is in fact, somewhere else entirely. Of course the danger of going off the beaten path is avoiding the conspiracy theorist loons...
- can't wait for the movieBattleAxe
- don't worry TBO - you are a definite fucking loonbliznutty
- damn straight. It might just be a lunatic you're looking for...TheBlueOne
- ukit0
Glen Beck will do comedy tour...
- Wait..what? Hasn't he been doing comedy? Or you mean..he's BEEN serious?TheBlueOne
- ukit0
Obama will lift travel and business restrictions on Cuba
- About fucking time.TheBlueOne
- I'll take itBattleAxe
- Well done.********