religion
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- _niko0
I've found that with the more conviction people talk about a subject the more full of shit they are.
Notice scientists use the terms, "we think" and "theory" and "we believe" and "hoping to understand" and "best guess". They are always looking for the answer, questioning their own work and never accepting anything as dogma.
- youngdesigner0
I can see arguments on both sides, but I thought yurimon raised some good points. Science can't explain consciousness, and if you can't explain consciousness how can you be sure of anything else? If we can't be sure about the nature of reality, then science can be seen as just another belief system.
Bottom line we have only been on this Earth a short time. It would be foolish to say that we know everything or completely reject the wisdom of religions that are thousands of years old.
- at least science doesn't claim to know everything. Religion just tells you quit thinking about that question you just had,pango
- thousand years of wisdom. what is that?pango
- It's the wisdom of elders. going back many hundred of year.youngdesigner
- the same elders that told us that the earth was being carried on the back of a giant turtle?_niko
- No different elderyoungdesigner
- not asking about wisdom told how long ago or told by who. i'm asking the detail of the wisdom.pango
- btw. "different elder" which one?pango
- Are you talking about the same elder that built the giza pyramid aligned to stars in the middle of earth?yurimon
- because to do that who ever built sure knew the earth was round and its position in spaceyurimon
- really? i'm not a scientist or smart to begin with. couldn't they just study the pattern on how stars moves and predict where' it's gonna be for the next ten years?pango
- it's gonna be for the next ten years? it's not like they align every day or every year after all.pango
- just did a google search. and they say it only happens once 2737. so people who built it only saw it align once or never seen it aligned.pango
- why they do it? who know? maybe they just really like pointing at the stars...pango
- ok just did a bit more googling. it actually happens pretty often. but still i think it's cool they like to point thing at the stars.pango
- as if religion can explain consciousness at all, their answer to everything is "magic"moldero
- Not really. thats your stereo typical assumption. should look into it...yurimon
- also keep in mind that how people see the world changes as indoctrination changes.yurimon
- so..... which elder?pango
- mikotondria30
"if you can't explain consciousness how can you be sure of anything else?"
Given then the 'everything else' exists within human consciousness, do you mean ? As in - every experiment ever devised, every theory discovered, etc etc ?
I started this response ready to blast away, but I think I realised what you mean, and asked the question..- that is exactly the point in everything we perceive.yurimon
- youngdesigner0
@mikotrondria
Yes that's more or less what I mean. Think of it like fish swimming in a tank. The fish sees that there is water, rocks, other fish, fish food, but know nothing of what is outside the tank. It would never occur to fish that it is actually existing in an environment engineered by someone else. Well in this case consciousness is the fish tank. We know that things work a certain way within our existence (consciousness), we can run tests and observe certain laws i.e. science. But have no way of seeing outside of this and understanding the fundamental nature of reality. If consciousness is fundamental to reality, as yurimon suggested and as some physicist now believe, then reality itself may have an intelligent origin. It cannot be proven but cannot be ruled out either.
- and the elders can see out side of the tank? who is this elder? and how did they do it?pango
- http://i.imgur.com/4…pango
- drugs pango,
they did drugsGeorgesIV - like "moses might be on drugs" ?http://www.dailymai...pango
- http://www.dailymail…pango
- pango0
seriously what wisdom were you talking about? and who told this wisdom?
- this question shouldn't be that hard. it's so broad and you're on the internet.pango
- i just need an example that ancient people got it right all along and science today clearly got it wrong.pango
- many ancient philosophers got the concept of an atom right... http://en.wikipedia.…IRNlun6
- an example of how ancient people had it right, and science today can prove that they had it right.IRNlun6
- :(
0:0 then...pango - to me the problem also we depend on translation by 3rd parties on ancient textsyurimon
- that's why we can't find any?pango
- texts are there. I spoke to vedic professor. there is still shit load of text untouched or in process of translation.yurimon
- question is are the translations accurate.yurimon
- which example are you talking about specifically?pango
- if there are problem with translation or unread text... how can you be sure you know what it is other than gut guessing?pango
- moldero0
Science explanation for things they don't know yet: We think it might be this, its a theory, but we don't know yet, but one day, we hope to know.
Christians explanation for things they don't know yet:
We do know, and its
- lol 1:56:04 – 1:56:33
http://www.youtube.c…pango - <yupmoldero
- lol 1:56:04 – 1:56:33
- pango0
lets not forget Egyptian used to warship this thing...
- youngdesigner0
Consciousness Is Part of Reality, Not a Trick of Evolution
- cool. since we're on the religion thread. can you show me how religion explains consciousness butter than science?pango
- conscious butter?youngdesigner
- my bad. lol excuse my misspelled words.
"better"pango
- yurimon0
spiritual (adj.)
- yurimon0
spirituality (n.)
- yurimon0
i'm combining through this link...
found it interesting...- cool. but is that article just talking about theories and possibilities with out any way of proofing that it's right?pango
- Is there anyway of proofing that you exist?youngdesigner
- yes my actions will cause changes that wouldn't have happened other wise no matter how insignifican it might be. there for I exist.pango
- things that doesn't exist does not have effect on this world.pango
- Your actions in a dream change changes too. Does that proof the dream world exist?youngdesigner
- it exist in my head. just like my thought.pango
- god is no more real than my dream. if my dreams says my dick would burst in flame the second I commit sodomy. I certainpango
- am certain that will not happen. and that's is how real I think god is. a thought or dream of man who thinks it's real.pango
- And do you know that you are dreaming when you are? Or do you think its real?youngdesigner
- Some time i can actually realize when i'm dreaming. and do the super man thing. it's really fun you should try.pango
- or if i don't realized that i'm dreaming how do i know if it's real? well i wake up from it.pango
- and judging from it's inconsistency of things. no beginning or end. i know it's not real.pango
- What you are describing is called lucid dreaming I believeyoungdesigner
- So consider religion as a form of lucid wakefullnessyoungdesigner
- Religious experience is the moment when you realize there is something more than reality, and that it is just an illusion as recognized throughout history by elders and other wise peopleyoungdesigner
- realize as in gut feeling? or jesus puff in to existence in front of me and give me the power to turn water into wine?pango
- that a spiritual experience, a religious experience is putting money in a plate while being brainwashedmoldero
- what if i do realize that there's something more than reality. it still doesn't mean i'm going to believe in any religion.pango
- and nothing religion promise which can not prove by science is certain. Even if there's a possibility. nobody knows for certain what that possibility is.pango
- certain what that possibility is. 50/50? 1/1000? 1/10000000000? ?/?pango
- Intuition is sense in my opinion. gut feelings etc. More than intellectualizing everything.yurimon
- pango0
still waiting to know which wise elder you guys were talking about...
and also a clear example which the elder is right and modern science is wrong.
- pango0
^
- youngdesigner0
Civilization have existed in many forms throughout history. Including ancient civilizations and knowledge that are probably unknown today.
- oh cool. a probably unknown civilization. what does that prove?pango
- or what does that mean?pango
- there is probably a flying spaghetti monster we don't know about.pango
- there is probably hyper dimensional mice running earth and using human as experiment that we don't know about.pango
- sorry i didn't watch the entire video... it's way too long. you don't bring a 80 mins video to an debate...pango
- just tell me the part in the video that's going to support your point.pango
- There are no miceyoungdesigner
- can you prove that there's no mice hidden behind the curtain and doing experiment on human?pango
- lol sorry to ask you to use such incorrect logic to prove something which was once used by some religious people.pango
- pango0
Can religion or spirituality you mentioned provide repeatable result of anything that people claim that is supernatural?
- Lol. No way. God won't be played with like that.monospaced
- really? i imagine him being a cool dude.pango
- pango0
still waiting to know which wise elder you guys were talking about...
and also a clear example which the elder is right and modern science is wrong.
the reason for that example is to show that modern science has limitation and in such circumstance only the ancient or spiritual can explain.however it has to be something with repeatable result and absolute certainty.
if there are any part left with unknown, how do you know what it is other guessing?
if you are just guessing. how do you consider that real or fact?
- Morning_star0
^
Pango, you're assuming that Religion and Science are in some way comparable. They're not. By it's very definition 'Faith' requires only belief. That's all. Nothing more.If you're universe is entirely explainable by materialism then cool, good luck with that. However, i choose to leave a little room in my universe for that which isn't defined by being repeatable in a lab.
- *yourMorning_star
- lol don't worry about that.
message received regardless.pango - and thank! My luck has been good :)pango
- wouldn't you find repeatability important? i mean the first person did everything the book instruct him to do and he goes to heaven.pango
- heaven but second person did the exact same thing but goes to hell... how would any believer know what to do anymore?pango
- The dogma and doctrine of Religion is the bullshit. If you do A then you'll get B is more about humans controlling humans than anything spiritualMorning_star
- anything spiritual. Whether you're a Satanist, Janist, Bhuddist orJew or Scientologist is largely irrelevant. It's all spiritual.Morning_star
- spiritual.Morning_star
- How dare you question god's word.monospaced
- forgive me... :(pango
- pango0
I my self do feel there are something more than science can explain (maybe yet). I think that there's this energy on earth in life that's all connected. However I have no evidence or any facts to back it up thus I will not treat it as a fact, merely a gut feeling and thought. nor will i go out there and preach it as it is real that everybody should believe.
if all it require is faith for religion to be a real thing. than anything can be a religion. As long as you have enough people who has faith in it.
Doesn't that make religion less credible and something to be taken lightly?Well i'm not really here to stop anyone doing whatever they do. i'm just here to exchange thought with everyone. Hoping people with different ideas can explain their believes in a way that I can understand. Making sense of something that doesn't make sense to me.
- very well thought out, thank you... just because enough people believe myths doesn't make them true, or more true than anothermonospaced