Question for experienced print designers
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- 23 Responses
- vaxorcist0
have a "change request form" that has to be signed off on, or accepted via email.... ammunition forwhen bean counter questions why final bill is different from estimate
- dMullins0
Don't quote per page, quote per signature. Given how signatures are setup, I might use this idea in a "range" quote, instead of price-per-page. So each additional signature set = bump in price, not each individual page.
- acrossthesea0
I'd want to know what exactly they had in mind for the 40+ pages. If 3/4 of those pages can follow a similar layout, then it'd be a lot faster than 40 unique layouts. Maybe you can get some sort of outline from them?
Like others have said, maybe break this up into 2 phases. Use the 1st phase to design a few key spreads and get them to buy off on the look/feel. Then use phase 2 to finish the bulk of the work. Phase 1 can be a set price, phase 2 can be hourly.
- d_rek0
If you're thinking in billable hours i've done two books in the last year.
120+ hours for a 6.5x9", 64 pg, signature bound, 4CP offset printed Supplemental Reader for a Museum. Supplied Copy and Images with many rounds of copy editing and revision.
60 hours for a 50 pg perfect bound book, supplied copy, had to acquire images from media galleries/stock photos.
- sisu0
Now try explaining signatures to the client. Charge by the hour, wtf.
- Gucci0
I can't spend too much time writing, but as a word of advice, If I were to quote the project, I'd do it per page.
That way if the page count fluctuates you're covered.
- capn_ron0
There are a lot of questions you would need to answer before this is a quotable job. Are you going to be receiving photos from them, or do you have to art direct photo shoots as well. You may want to ask them if they have a budget already in mind. Other questions are if that budget includes printing. Are the products all shot already, or do you need to art direct studio photography?
These are just a few of the questions I would be asking. The other part that makes it hard to estimate time is on how fast you are in InDesign. Once you have a look and style sheets, it goes pretty quick, but those take time to design and make look good. 45 pages is a good sized book and you don't want to short yourself, so I would ask those questions and then overestimate the time you think it will take to do the job.
- AVAVA0
thanks D_rek - Just out of curiosity, what did you set as a day rate charge for those projects?
A
- AVAVA0
sorry - I meant hourly charge...
- d_rek0
I work for a small firm. Our going rate is around $200/day for design services. So break it down...
8hr average work day (realistically 10-12)
120 / 8 = 15 days
200 / 8 = $25/hr
15 x $200 = $3,000Although if you're going at it as a freelancer you can (and probably will want to) charge more.
Also FYI... the 120hr number is purely design+production. It did not include meetings and/or research.
- vaxorcist0
make DAMN sure you have a contract that spells out that the client is responsible for final press check....
I worked for a small agency that was almost bankrupted by a client demanding a huge job be reprinted because they didn't notice an error that only they could have found... i.e. not a typo, but wrong info....
- AVAVA0
Great responses guys, thank you.
Gucci - Per page is wise, will bear that in mind.
Capn_ron - Good questions, thank you.
• They would supply all shots from the shoot and should be ready to use - although it is worth me asking if they are expecting me to retouch the shots - just incase they view that as part of the job I suppose...
• They have mentioned a budget - as always this is not the true budget - but they have asked me to quote in any case, as their budget may not be realistic etc...
• Not sure if this includes printing - I bloody hope not!
• I would say I am intermediate Indesign user, but not very fast, I am a bit precious on getting the designs 'just so' etc.. so that may slow me down also...
• 45 pages is a fair size, so I think I will quote per page I guess.
Cheers
A
- tasty0
get paid in trident layers gum.
- AVAVA0
Another fine point - thanks Vaxo!
- i_monk0
45 pages is impossible.
44 or 46, pick one.
Unless you mean 90.
- how is 46 going to work? you need page numbers to be divisible by 4.Amicus
- By 46, he must have meant 48...duckofrubber
- 48 is a standard... 44 is wasting paper unless you have a bizarre format.
maikel
- AVAVA0
Thanks for the info D_rek.
i_monk - yup good point - Ill take 44.
- maikel0
Quote per hour. You know better than anybody else how much an hour of your time is worth. Consider design, meetings, amends, ask about proof read, photo editing (you will need some retouching regardless) and production sourcing/qa. Think about your printing costs. More often than not you will need to proof your book, and let's say you have to print the whole lot a few times, there's over a 100 decent colour printed copies. Oh, and if you don't have yet a set of standard terms&conds make sure you get one beforehand.
Once you got your number, do it times 1,5 and add VAT.
...and after all that, if you like the project, probably you will end up taking it on whatever money they want to pay you.
- gramme0
I can't add anything to what capn said, besides a design suggestion: make it a perfect-bound book. If this is a high-end brand, it will look better. At 44+ pages, it'll be thick enough. It depends on paper weight, but below 36 pp. or so will take you back into saddle-stitched territory. If you perfect-bind, your page count can be divisible by two, rather than four. But four will still be the most economical choice in most scenarios.
- AVAVA0
Good stuff thanks.
- gramme0
Also, don't lock into a page count just yet. I recommend approaching it from a thumbnail/storyboard perspective first. Get your pagination and flow locked in before you even think about type, color, etc.
Maybe give them a price range based on a few different page count options. Going hourly after phase one might get you into trouble. You'll run higher risks of being nickel & dimed to death.