Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI
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- rupedixon0
The point is, this is not a religion debate, it's a legal process debate. The pope should be arrested for aiding and abetting, or for perverting the course of justice.
None of this has anything to do with anyone's beliefs - it's about the sanctity of the rule of law.
- the real crux of the debate is the corrupt partnership between the church and statemrghost
- kingkong0
Utter nonsense.
THE ALLEGATIONS THAT ARE COMING OUT DATE FROM THE 60'S AND 70'S (oops) around the world. Averaged out it works out at about 7-8 allegations in the whole of the catholic church each year globally.
At the moment in the UK there are 4/5 allegations of inappropriate behaviour, on average 2 of which are found to be false. So thats 3 in the whole of the UK per year.
Now im not condoning it by any stretch, and in fact I went to a jesuit boarding school that was caught up in a fairly major scandal in the 90's, but come on a bit of perspective.
As a lapsed Catholic, I think it's been an unmitigated PR disaster but the way Dawkins is talking you'd think that the Catholic church is completely alone in behaviour such as this.
Over the same period care homes, Children's charities like Banardos, the cub scouts for fuck sake have had a way worse record, but for some reason everyones after the catholics. I'm guessing its because of the visit to the UK this year.
In the 60's, 70's etc so many institutions were aweful, the catholics were a part of it for sure, but if you're going to have a go at the Pope, there are a several other people you should haul in from Harold Wilson to heads of care to the elderly and all that.
Dawkins hates religion, but he shouldn't misread this country. There are 6 million practising Catholics in the country, by far the largest church going population. I think it's a PR stunt, and the guy is way off.
- did you watch the BBC documentary? There's plenty of cases and more cover-ups after 2000__TM
- I didnt, but dont always believe what you see on TVkingkong
- the documentary is full of first-hand victim & abusers testimonies, just watch it__TM
- how many cover-ups of child rape does it take before it's serious anyway? 5? 20? 100?__TM
- didnt say it was serious, just wondering when every other institution will be looked at...kingkong
- the cub scouts have a record, no disagreement there... but worse? you've got to be kidding...BuddhaHat
- Doesn't matter when it happened. Polanski was attacked for 30 year old crimes too.monospaced
- ukit0
OK, fine, but like the article I quoted from above states, the Pope was the guy directly in charge of "investigating" (which in practice meant white washing) the abuse charges earlier in his career. So there is plenty to personally implicate the Pope. Imagine any other organization, like a government or business ordered their employees across the world not to contact the authorities at risk of being fired when an abuse case came up. That would be considered criminal in most normal cases, I have no idea why it should be treated differently for a religion.
Why they elevated this guy to Pope is very troubling when you consider that. And they show no sign of changing at all. Not sure if you have heard of Bernard Law, he's a Boston priest who was implicated years ago with ignoring dozens of abuse cases in his diocese. Where is he now, in jail? Nope, he's hanging out at the Vatican with Ratzinger.
- In fact, he was one of the people who voted Ratzinger in as Popeukit
- *applaudsarmsbottomer
- BenWeeks0
I don't believe anything in the teaching of Jesus supports the perpetuation of abuse. "Christian" should mean follower of Jesus-not religious moral entitlement to hide evil.
- perhaps you are confusing 'christian' with 'Catholic'flashbender
- mrghost0
isn't the statute of limitations up on this anyhow? I don't know the law on that.
- ernexbcn0
I appreciate his effort even though more than likely nothing will happen to the god damned pope
- kingkong0
So we arrest the Pope and he gets convicted of a cover up. A year in jail for perverting the course of justice... Then what?
There will be another Pope and the Catholic church will carry on existing... Some reforms for sure, but more or less unchanged as it has been for 2000 years...
I guess if you dislike the Pope you see it as an institutional cover up and if you're a catholic, an establishment which hunt.
At the end of the day the church isn't going to disappear over night, and any reform that will happen will happen within. There are 1.166 billion baptized Catholics worldwide, most of which kind of like where it is...
If it wasn't Dawkins but lets say an actually abusee who was trying to arrest the Pope I'd have more sympathy. But Dawkins and Hitchens have a vested interest in seeing him defrocked.
At the end of the day what they really want to happen is for the Pope not to set foot on UK soil. We have had huge separation of the church from the State in this country, and the atheist argument has to all intents won, and they are scared that its creeping back.
- and there are nearly 7 billion people worldwide...they are grossly outnumberedmonospaced
- indeed, but I doubtthey give a monkeys what atheists, muslims, hindus and buddists think.kingkong
- I don't think Dawkins really said he was going to arrest the Popeukit
- I'm not sure about this whole arresting this, just sayin it's pretty clear the Pope IS involved in this personallyukit
- stewdio0
I don't mean to come off as rude, but . . . it's 2010. Why are we still pretending that it's acceptable for adults to believe in a bearded man that lives in the sky and hears your whispers. Worse yet these people make decisions and vote in elections based on these wild fantasies. There are no gods. There are no prophets. There's only us. And we have to deal with one another.
- How do you know there is no God? the US is a macrocosm of christian craziness don't think everywhere is like thatgeorgesIII
- Last time I checked Vatican City wasn't located in Iowa Georges.ukit
- How do we know there's not God? Same reason we know there's no Tooth Fairy, No proof.monospaced
- kingkong0
Oh and the other thing, you have to have proof to arrest anyone...
- There is proof. That's what prompted the articles that lead to this thread.stewdio
- there is proof that priests abused children, not that the Pope personally covered them uppp. Just conjecture.kingkong
- No. His signature is on documents reassigning these priests after being exposed.stewdio
- http://www.timesonli…stewdio
- georgesIII0
but once again, this has nothing to do with the belief in god, but with crime committed by individuals in an institutions which were covered by other individuals in the same institutions.
and no offense but it sounds like you repeated almost word to word what has been said ad nauseum on every atheist board of the net,
- ukit0
Let's put it this way, if there is a God, he's got to be a cynical bastard with a dark sense of humor. Billions of people on this planet and who does he chose as his right hand man? A homophobic, pedophile-shielding ex-Nazi.
- Have you ever read the bible? Do you know who the whore or babylon is? Come on ukit.FredMcWoozy
- mydo0
Didn't the Christian threads get deleted the other day?
- FredMcWoozy0
I am posting this from another threat because I believe some of you should read more and depend on your public school education less.by Maddogkull]
Thanks to Tentickles great thread I was starting to think what Tentickles was trying to tell us about 2012.Then I saw this in Tenktickles thread.
“ In 1139, Saint Malachi experienced a vision of the future. He saw 112 different popes and gave them all cryptic mottos. These mottos described the popes in order. Each motto has been associated with each numbered Pope. The mottos are usually related to places of birth, their coat of arms or their pontificates. The current pope is Pope Benedict XVI; he is the 111th pope on the list. His motto read, “Gloria Olivae” meaning glory of the olive. Pope Benedict XVI promotes peace and the symbol of peace is an olive branch.”After I saw that it made me wonder. If Saint Malachi actually did predict this with such preciseness, maybe some of the bible predictions might be real. Was it coincidence that he predicted glory of the olive, and that Pope Benedict XVI promotes peace and the symbol of peace is an olive branch??? To me that just seems to strikingly similar. Does anyone agree with me on that?
Prophecy of Popes:
Pope Benedict XV (Religio depopulata)
The motto means "religion laid waste". During Pope Benedict XV's reign, three significant events occurred:
• World War I, which killed 20 million people in Europe,
• Spanish flu, the 1918 flu pandemic which killed 50-100 million people worldwide
• the October Revolution in Russia, which established the atheist Soviet Union.Pope Pius XI (Fides intrepida)
The motto means "intrepid faith". This pope released the encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge which condemned Nazi racism and also signed agreements with Fascist Italy which, among other things, gave the Vatican sovereignty, established the pope as head of state, and added 700 million lire to the church coffers.Pope Pius XII (Pastor angelicus)
The motto means "angelic shepherd". This pope was known to be very mystical, and it was believed that he received visions. His writings added greatly to understanding of Catholic beliefs and church doctrine. During his reign, Pius exercised Papal Infallibility in defining dogma when he issued, on November 1, 1950 an apostolic constitution, Munificentissimus Deus, which defines ex cathedra the dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary into heaven, on the request of the heavenly father. He was declared Venerable in 2000.
Pope John XXIII (Pastor et nauta)
"Pastor et nauta" translates to "shepherd and sailor". Prior to his election he was patriarch of Venice, which is a maritime city, famous for its waterways and gondolas.
According to Peter Bander in The Prophecies of Malachy, during the conclave which was to elect John XXIII, Cardinal Spellman, evidently having taken Malachy's forecast that the next pope would be "pastor and mariner" literally, rented a boat, filled it with sheep and sailed up and down the Tiber.
The anti-pope Pius XIII of the True Catholic Church has also claimed to be "Pastor et nauta", as their group believes that his last valid predecessor was Pius XII. He has used justifications including his residence in the United States, which is across the Atlantic Ocean from Rome.Pope Paul VI (Flos florum)
Pope Paul VI, is described in the prophecies as "flos florum" or "flower of flowers". His personal arms bore three fleurs-de-lis, the heraldic charge best known as that in the arms of the French monarchy. Fleur-de-lis literally means "flower of the lily": yet the medieval flower par excellence was the rose, not the lily; and many popes have borne various flowers in their arms.
The fleur-de-lys has the meaning of purity and chastity in Catholic religion. This is based upon scripture. Paul VI published his encyclical Humanae Vitae subtitled On Human Life, on July 25, 1968. In this encyclical he reaffirmed the Catholic Church's traditional condemnation of artificial birth control.Pope John Paul I (De medietate lunae)
"De medietate lunae" translates to "from the midst of the moon" or "from the half moon". It has also been interpreted as "De media aetate lunae", meaning "of the middle age of the moon".
• Albino Luciani, who later became Pope John Paul I, was born in Canale d'Agordo, diocese of Belluno, which name is similar to bella luna or beautiful moon.
• He was elected on August 26, 1978, the day after the moon reached its last quarter, and reigned for 33 days, approximately five days longer than a lunar cycle. He died the day before the new moon.
• However, a much simpler explanation might be that he was born on the day of the half moon: on October 17, 1912, the moon was in its first quarter.
• Others point to his name before becoming pope, Albino Luciani. Albino is related to "albus", white, and "Luciani", derived from "Lucius", is ultimately related to the Latin word lux "light", whence "white light". Still others have linked "half-moon" to the smile often exhibited by John Paul I, who is remembered by many as the "smiling Pope."Pope John Paul II (De labore solis)
The prophetic motto corresponding to Pope John Paul II is "De labore solis", which literally means "Of the labor (work/giving birth) of the sun"; but "labor solis" is a common Latin expression that means a solar eclipse.
There are a variety of explanations that have been given to explain the motto:
• Karol Jozef Wojtyła, who later became Pope John Paul II, was born on 18 May 1920, the day of a partial solar eclipse over the Indian Ocean, and buried on 8 April 2005, the day of a rare hybrid eclipse over the south-western Pacific and South America.
• During World War II, Karol Wojtyła worked in a quarry, "laboring in the sunlight".
• It might also be seen to be the fruit of the intercession of the "Woman Clothed with the Sun labouring" in the Book of Revelation 12, because of his devotion to the Virgin Mary, to whose intercession he credited surviving an assassination attempt early in his papacy.
• Also, he affirmed the importance of the reported messages of the Virgin Mary at Fatima, which had as its confirming event, the strange "solar miracle" or "sun spinning in the sky" event, reported in the secular media in 1917.
• It has also been suggested that the associated Latin phrase could also be an anagram for "de borealis sol" (correct Latin: de boreali sol) or "a Sun from the North", being a luminary coming from Poland which is north of Rome.
• Another interpretation points simply to the sun rising in the east and his being the first Pope from Eastern Europe.
• A further theory is that the combination of "labore" and "solis" cryptically refers to "the sun of the workers", i.e., "the star of communism", with John Paul being the only pope to have spent much of his life under a communist regime.
• Yet another theory exists among some traditionalist Catholics, who believe that the motto translates as "Eclipse of the Sun". These Catholics view the Second Vatican Council as a fundamental departure of the Catholic faith. and that the differences between the church before and after the council are stark enough to regard the contemporary official Catholic Church as a new modernist church and not truly Catholic. The sun is so interpreted as the true Catholic faith, which has been eclipsed by the heterodoxy of the council teachings. They identify this time period as the Great Apostasy, that has been predicted for the End of Times.
• Solidarity, the Polish labor movement that despised Communism, might be seen as a connection to "Labor of the Sun."
• John Paul II introduced the Luminous Mysteries to the Rosary.
• During his pontificate, John Paul II traveled extensively all around the world, more than any other pope before, and similarly to what the sun does daily, from an earth-centric point of view.
• Nicolaus Copernicus, who was the first astronomer to formulate a comprehensive heliocentric cosmology, spent his youth in Kraków, Poland. The heliocentric model of the universe was described as heretical by Catholic Church during the early 1600s, when the Copernican system was espoused by Galileo Galilei. This position was reversed in 1992 by Pope John Paul II, who also spent his youth in Kraków, Poland, in his apology to Galileo, 450 years after Copernicus published De revolutionibus and 360 years after Galileo's trial. Thus, the "Toil of the Sun" may have referenced the Church's acceptance of heliocentricity.- Read and come to a conclusion.FredMcWoozy
- Conclusion: You are an idiot.stewdio
- hahahahahaukit
- Legendaanderton
- kingkong0
I thought this one of the more balanced commentaries...
It best explains my point of view I suppose, which isnt that different from most here:
"Most priests are not wicked. Catholics, in my experience, whether lay or clerical tend to be rather good people: gentle, spiritually aware, concerned for others, kept decently humble by the explicitness of Confession. But their Church has betrayed them, because it fossilised into a culture of hierarchy and unquestioning obedience, at the expense of individual conscience and intelligence. This is the fault line that may bring it down.
I don’t want that, even if Hitchens and Dawkins do. But in making those who trusted it complicit in concealment, the Catholic Church has done a great and terrible wrong to its faithful. And I fear the Vatican still hasn’t grasped the full corruption of that."
- FredMcWoozy0
Pope Benedict XVI (Gloria olivae)
"Gloria olivae" or "glory of the olive", is the last short phrase on the list.
• Prior to the papal conclave, this motto led to speculation that the next pontiff would be from the Order of Saint Benedict, whose symbols include the olive branch.
• Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, elected in April 2005, is not a Benedictine, but did choose Benedict XVI as his regnal name, partially named after Benedictine founder Benedict of Nursia, which might be regarded as a fulfillment of this prophecy.
• By choosing the name Benedict, the Pope became linked with St. Benedict, who in turn is distantly connected to the Olivetans, a small sub-order of Benedictines. Although it is frequently stated that the Order of St Benedict is also known as that of the Olivetans, this is not true: while all Olivetans are Benedictines, few Benedictines are Olivetans.
• On 5 April 1993, the future Pope Benedict XVI was installed as the cardinal bishop of Velletri-Segni. Velletri's coat of arms are emblazoned with three olive trees.
• Pope Benedict XVI was born on 16 April, the feast day of Saint Benedict Joseph Labre (26 March 1748 - 16 April 1783), also known as the Holy Pilgrim, with whom the Pope now shares both names, Benedict and Joseph. St. Benedict Labre, however, is not associated with olives, Olivetans or Mount Olivet in any way.
• Yet another possible interpretation might be that, like his predecessor — who spoke of the Church needing to "breathe with both lungs" again — Pope Benedict XVI has a special desire to reunite with the Eastern Orthodox churches, which have been separated since the Great Schism in 1054. The olive can of course be taken as a symbol of Greece, and hence the Greek Orthodox Church (and — by extension — the Russian Orthodox Church which grew out of it).
• Another interpretation was that "Gloria Olivae" would promote world peace, as symbolized by the olive branch. In a general audience on 27 April 2005, Benedict XVI explained that he chose his regnal name as a link to Benedict XV, "Religio Depopulata", and that: "In his footsteps I place my ministry, in the service of reconciliation and harmony between peoples, profoundly convinced that the great good of peace is above all a gift of God, a fragile and precious gift to be invoked, safeguarded and constructed, day after day and with everyone's contribution."
• Some, who expect Pope Benedict XVI to restore order and discipline, namely, the "rule", Latin "regula", within the Catholic Church, the "sheepfold", Latin "ovilis", whence "ovilia", the place where the sheep lay to rest. Consider the phrase to be an imperfect and ungrammatical anagram, "de regola ovilia" (correct Latin: de regula oviliae) or "of the rule of the sheepfold" for the counter-reformation he is expected to introduce.
• Others have pointed to the Olivet Discourse in the Gospel of Matthew and argued that the events described therein will come to completion during the reign of this Pope. These people argue that the Tribulation will begin during the reign of Benedict XVI.
Cardinal Ratzinger's choice of the name Benedict XVI was seen by some as the fulfillment of the prophecy gloria olivae, since it is claimed that the olive branch is sometimes used as a symbol of St. Benedict. However, prior to his election there were numerous speculations in the media as to what could be considered as "fulfillment of the prophecy". For example, it was said that any pope from the Benedictine Order; or any Latin American pope (with olive complexion) or any black pope; or any pope from Italy or Spain (two countries strongly associated with the cultivation of olives); or any pope with links to Judaism—any of the aforementioned possibilities was advanced as constituting a fulfillment of the prophecy, giving a broad array of possibilities. It has also been noted that the choice of name, while interesting for those who predicted the choice of the name, was not statistically unlikely, as modern papal names are generally chosen from a fairly limited set of names. In the last 250 years, for example, there have only been eight names used for Popes: Clement, John, Benedict, Pius, Gregory, Paul, Leo, and John Paul. Media comments on Pope Benedict XVI's choice of name have suggested that his motive was to emulate Pope Benedict XV’s legacy of diplomacy and theological conservatismPetrus Romanus
The longest and final motto reads:
• In the original Latin:
In p̲secutione extrema S.R.E. ſedebit. Petrus Romanus, qui paſcet oues in multis tribulationibus: quibus tranſactis ciuitas ſepticollis diruetur, & Iudex tremẽdus iudicabit populum ſuum. Finis.
• This is usually translated into English as:
"During the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church, the seat will be occupied by
Peter the Roman, who will feed his sheep in many tribulations:
and when these things are finished, the city of seven hills will be destroyed,
and the formidable Judge will judge His people.
The End."
However, in the 1595 Lignum Vitae, the line In persecutione extrema S.R.E. sedebit. forms a separate sentence and paragraph of its own, and it is unclear whether it is grammatically related to Gloria Olivae which precedes it, or to Petrus Romanus, which follows it.
The claim that the original list written by St. Malachy, does not contain a reference to Petrus Romanus and that the last lines were added to the printed text in Wyon's Lignum Vitæ cannot be proved, as the original manuscript (if any) no longer exists.- Here is the section about the current pope.FredMcWoozy
- http://www.catholic-…FredMcWoozy
- so he thinks the worlds gonna end soon?mrghost
- ukit0
If Ratzinger is best qualified to lead humanity, then I'm Santa Claus.
- garretttt0
stubborn atheist unite!
- georgesIII0
Ukit, it seems you never will understand the difference between the belief in a higher conciousness that you can call god and the institution who appropriated the title of god's firewall called the catholic church.
can we stay on topic and not go on the pc vs mac bs for once.
- kingkong0
what a prick
- ukit0
Screw you guys. My God will beat your God's ass everytime.