Politics
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- ismith0
Marx
- ukit0
"Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world.
Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world.
Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality.
The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering.
Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."
-Karl Marx, 1843
- marx wanted man to obey a social elite vs god. he was a whiny jealous baby********
- marx wanted man to obey a social elite vs god. he was a whiny jealous baby
- ukit0
I think the old bearded commie bastard has a point, don't you?
Especially this part:
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions."
- of course he does... but I challenge you to argue w/someone of 'faith' and see how well taken his point is :)PonyBoy
- bringing me back to my initial Q...
"anyone else get the feeling that 'world' gov's are about to crack down on religion... on all fronts?"PonyBoy - Perfectly crafted point.Mimio
- Sometimes it seems like people were smarter back thenukit
- Or maybe there was just more interest in debating philosophical issues instead of just scienceukit
- OR maybe they weren't debating on the internet, so only "worthy" points survived.ismith
- ukit0
- PonyBoy0
given Marx's opinion on religion...
... how do you argue that w/folks of faith?
- You don't, that would require both bringing up rational points.DrBombay
- One would be talking about facts and the other would be talking about superstition. There is no arguing with superstition.DrBombay
- superstition.DrBombay
- Hard to do. Most religious people are enculturated by their families and religious groups.Mimio
- BattleAxe0
California is a sign of things to come, if they legalize the public sale of marijuana and regulate tax it, what else can be done with 400k signatures on a petition
term limits for U.S Congress and Senate
campaign caps but not donations ?
what about a National Veto like a vote of no confidence
- ukit0
Well, you know Pony - why bother? I don't think anyone will change their mind based on a logical argument.
Usually it's events in someone's life that leads them to lose faith (or gain it). However I think it's pretty clear that in the Western world at least the younger generation is getting less and less religious. I linked to a study earlier in this thread that showed that only 50% of Gen Y believes in God in a traditional sense. Something like 20% believe the Bible is literally true.
- PonyBoy0
"One would be talking about facts and the other would be talking about superstition. There is no arguing with superstition."
—DrBombay (from a note post above)Couldn't agree more...
... so - given the fact that you're dealing w/ a person or a group of people who live based on said superstition (aka 'faith')...
... what action do you take in order to keep their craziness from manifesting itself via some sort of action (aka - bombing an abortion clinic... or... bombing a train in Moscow)?
- I don't have an answer for that, it is taboo to doubt religions in this country.DrBombay
- eieio0
there is nothing irrational about being religious. lots of perfectly rational ideas and ways of life are based entirely around religion. You guys are prejudice and small minded though. Faith has nothing to do with superstition its like faith and love are the same, you have faith in family and friends and work or whatever well 'people of faith' have faith in God aka life itself and this world.
- BonSeff0
The irrational argument of christian faith is simply - "you can't prove god DOESN'T exist"
no rational argument can come out of that premise
- no that what YOU THINK is the christian arguement but it is of course a very narrow stereotypical versioneieio
- no - that is the brass tacks my man.BonSeff
- and there are many arguements for God in Christianity, many real experience tooeieio
- you are obviously uneducated about christianityeieio
- name one experience that proves there is a god... i was raised christian btw..BonSeff
- I'm not talking 'proof' I'm talking evident experience, there's a differenceeieio
- Yes, one is credible and the other is notukit
- Plenty of people claim to have seen Bigfoot too you know;)ukit
- save the semanticsBonSeff
- don't get me started on bigfooteieio
- ukit0
Well, I think Marx was saying that belief in things that aren't real (like life after death) are a way of coping with an imperfect world. Take away the pain and suffering and you do away with a lot of the need for religion.
For example.. look back at the Middle Ages where people lived short, brutal lives and the government had absolute power, religion was huge back then. Or ancient Egypt as another example.
- eieio0
religion is pretty huge in truly happy and progressive societies aswell. Some of the biggest and modern societal changes, modern ones like human rights and imperialism were based around religious philosophies by religious people. Look at India and Gandhi's peaceful movement was derived from ancient religious ways of life, Jesus's dissent from the Roman empire wasn't much different... to make this political.
- Faith is still superstition.DrBombay
- no its categorically differenteieio
- explain.DrBombay
- superstition is laking knowledge faith IS knowledge. Just name one thing you have "faith' in and its the same as faith in God.eieio
- ...God. I personally have faith in myself. I know personally people with extreme faith in God and tis real.eieio
- They KNOW GOd, they don't not know something so they invented God. you know?eieio
- Their faith may be real while their god isn't. If you step on a crack, your mother's back will break.DrBombay
- You are talking bout something else. YOU ALREADY HAVE FAITH and its alll yourseieio
- BattleAxe0
PC gamers
does any one do a boot camp and play modern PC games on a newer imac , I have lots of PC games but my PC just crapped out and thinking about getting a iMac but still want to game on it !
- FffffuuuuuuBattleAxe
- you can't game on a mac...
... at all.PonyBoy - I wonder if Karl Marx was a gamerPonyBoy
- double FffffuuuuuuBattleAxe
- they should have him in Civ gamesBattleAxe
- install windows. i don't see why you couldn't.bulletfactory
- I have windows on my mac... it's dodgy for gaming... nothing like a PC experience :(PonyBoy
- ahh - i've not tried it.bulletfactory
- ukit0
That's a fair point, but if you look at the "happiest" countries on Earth, they are mostly in Europe, which is also the least religious part of the world I think. I mean, sure, religion can be used for good or bad purposes.
- mostly in Europe? try like small indian towns and islands in the pacificeieio
- http://www.articlesb…ukit
- http://www.financial…ukit
- http://www.forbes.co…ukit
- ukit0
You gotta wonder how the recent revelations regarding the Catholic Church will influence a generation that is growing up and hearing this stuff now.
- just wait till Jesus returnseieio
- EXACTLY!!
Christian or Muslim... or Jew... all three are being 'outed' everyday for their hypocrisy.PonyBoy - the Pope has already been outed as a total corrupted hypocrit by non other than Martin Luther himself, a Christianeieio
- ...Christian. You guys talk like this is new to religious issues.eieio
- DrBombay0
You can have your faith in whatever you like, when it impedes into how government works is where I think it is going too far.
- ukit0
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/2…
From that Forbes study from just last year, the ten "happiest" countries:
1. Denmark
2. Finland
3. Netherlands
4. Sweden
5. Ireland
6. Canada
7. Switzerland
8. New Zealand
9. Norway
10. BelgiumAnyone who has paid attention knows that Denmark and Sweden are among the least religious nations in the world. Polls asking about belief in God, the importance of religion in people’s lives, belief in life after death or church attendance consistently bear this out.
It is also well known that in various rankings of nations by life expectancy, child welfare, literacy, schooling, economic equality, standard of living and competitiveness, Denmark and Sweden stand in the first tier.
Well documented though they may be, these two sets of facts run up against the assumption of many Americans that a society where religion is minimal would be, in Mr. Zuckerman’s words, “rampant with immorality, full of evil and teeming with depravity.”
Which is why he insists at some length that what he and his wife and children experienced was quite the opposite: “a society — a markedly irreligious society — that was, above all, moral, stable, humane and deeply good.”
- you pick and choose your polls, the other ones conflicting results and they're not all in europeeieio
- Pretty fascinating isn't it? You could also point out that these are all countries that look out for the common good in terms of their economic systemsukit
- of their economic systemsukit
- AKA "Socialism"ukit
- I've seen national geographic studies on how happy Indians are due to their largely secular life styleseieio
- *non- secular life styles like buddhismeieio
- What do you mean, I posted the three first polls I could find and they all contained a large number of European countries and especially Scandinavianukit
- and especially Scandinavianukit
- and the phillipeens among others like i saideieio
- How does Nat Geo help your point then?Mimio
- Maybe that's just cause the Philipines is a cool place to live with beaches and shit;)ukit
- it helped my point because of India, honestly I've read many studies about how happy India is and Philipeans isn't far away reletivlyeieio
- BonSeff0
If god was real, there would be no need for 'faith'
- Faith No More?BattleAxe
- ha - actually listening to angel dust right nowBonSeff
- It's a miiiidlife....crisisukit
- depressing attitudeeieio
- Damn, now I gotta listen to that again;)ukit
- So convenient. God is hiding.Mimio
- God's right in front of youeieio
- God has several accounts on QBNeieio
- i don't find that having a firmer grip on reality is more depressing than believing Eve was made out of a rib.BonSeff
- thats a non arguement because I don't believe that and neither does everyone who understands Godeieio
- mmmm ribsfooler2
- evangelicals believe the good book, word for word homie
BonSeff - Just a few hundred years ago most religions would have excommunicated you for words like that eieioukit
- and evangelists make up like .01 percent of believers in Godeieio
- Go back even further and they might have thrown you in a dungeon somewhere if you said it publicly.ukit
- Your framing of religion is in stark contrast with the actual application of it throughout historyukit
- It's revisionismukit
