Moses was High
- Started
- Last post
- 285 Responses
- ********0
- TheBlueOne0
I'm done with this conversation...we're just speaking past each other really. I do find spiritual richness in the biblical and christian traditions, although I reject the whole central "mystery" of the NT - the whole Jesus, son of god, died for our sins, raised to heaven part. I find it irrelevant and in fact an obstacle to carrying out how Jesus suggested to live.
I believe that stuff was jacked up from Jewish mysticism of the time and corresponding dionystic greek religions. That part of the christian myth bores me to tears, and as I said above, trying to argue your faith on those points to me with no evidence of how you live a christian life according to Jesus' precepts just makes so many of these christians modern day pharisees to me. Couldn't make it through the eye of the needle, so to speak. It's all following the "man" (false idol) and not living right. i get it, cause you need to believe that J-man was The One. I think of him as A One. We are starting form different places and such iotas make a huge difference down the line. Wars were fought over such differences. I do not wish to refight them.
I think there is incredible amount of scholarship in the academic, judaic and evangelical traditions, but only one has a self-serving idealogy, thus earning the proverbial grain of salt.
I just find it lame that after centuries of development that this weak modern american evangelicalism thinks it needs to use rhetorical tricks and smokescreen use of faulty logical/scientific arguments to make some sort of deeper spiritual point about it's validity. Like I said somewhere above, it's just weak. Whereas I see the arguments about the validity of living a christian life as espoused in say something like Liberation Theology far more powerful and moving...
- <The music from the end of the first Lord of the Rings movie goes soooo well with this writing.harlequino
- gramme0
Blue, would you say that from what little you know of me, there is no evidence of a Christ-like life? By that I mean being kind to those who are unkind to me, self-controlled, quick to forgive, slow to anger, honest, wise, so on...I'm honestly asking you. You might not be able to answer, since we can only know so much about each other in this discussions; however I am interested in your thoughts.
I personally know many professing Christians who have been totally transformed by the gospel. Speaking for myself, before I became a Christian, I was thoroughly lacking in self control, had no moral scruples about sexuality, I was dishonest, I cheated when I could get away with it, I stole money from customers and employers, I was disrespectful and rebelled against all authority – basically anyone who got in my way. I was rude, self-centered, self-serving and worst of all, I knew exactly what I was doing. I knew the difference between right and wrong, I just chose to do whatever the hell suited me, whatever advanced my own agenda.
Basically, I was an asshole. The company I kept reflected that. I've always thought you can judge a man's character by his friends. The people I called my friends did not reflect very well on my own character.
Eventually, God broke my heart. The change did not happen overnight. It took time. Over the course of about 1 1/2 years, I became disenchanted with partying. I realized that I did not truly respect the woman I was in love with at the time. She had intended to stay a virgin until marriage; I had talked her into sleeping with me. I fully realize it takes two to tango, but I was a bad influence nevertheless. That relationship fell apart not long after I told her we should stop sleeping together – over time her conscience had become seared like mine, and she did not take this decision well.
The rest is a long and complicated story, but through these events and others that followed, my conscience came back with a vengeance. I remember the day I got a DWI as clearly as it was yesterday (in spite of how drunk I was). When a friend picked me up from the police station in the wee hours, I was so ashamed I couldn't even look at her. For the first time in my life, I began to have serious regrets for the way I had been living. The rest is a bit of a mystery. I had wandered away from the church I grew up in; I had denounced my faith; I had not regularly attended church in years. One day it just all fell apart, and everything changed.
I was 24 and living at home, not long after finishing my degree. I sat down my folks one day and told them everything. I totally lost it. I told them I was tired of running, tired of chasing after things that proved to hold no meaning. I felt an inch tall, but at the same time it seemed a huge weight had been lifted from me.
Since then, I am anything but perfect – some of you have even witnessed me lose my temper here in the past. But the change is undeniable and dramatic, and is apparent to even my non-Christian friends. Even they will tell you that I am a different person.
Believe what you want about the origins of the faith. But you cannot pick and choose the words of Jesus that resonate with you and throw out the rest. Either it's all right, or it's all wrong. The Bible is unclear on some things, but it's crystal clear on that. Jesus did not say "I am A way, A truth, A life." He said "I am THE way, THE truth, THE life. No man comes to the Father but through me."
There is really no way around this statement. In order to maintain intellectual honesty, one must either believe it and live accordingly, or call Jesus a liar and a charlatan. Jesus is not a sweet, blue-collar guy who said a few profound things. He is either fully God as well as fully man, or he was a sadistic faker and deserved his death on the cross for misleading so many people. I get so weary of people cherry picking from the Bible the passages they like and discarding the rest. You want to talk about arrogance? There it is, on display. Who are we to decide what is true wisdom and what is not? I Who are we to say that God did or didn't do anything, or that he even exists? He does not need us to validate his existence; he has already done so. It's written in scripture, it's in the fossil record, it's in the intricate order of the world around us. We either simply believe it, or we believe something else. Of course, I cannot scientifically PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt the existence of God, or any God for that matter. Neither can you disprove it.
What is so self-serving about surrendering ones will to God, and owning him as sovereign over all? Such a belief confirms our smallness and the narrow scope of our understanding. I'll tell you what is self-serving: doing whatever makes you feel good. Claiming that truth is relative, that we all define truth on a personal basis and that no truth exists beyond that. What is self-serving? Twisting the words of Christ to suit ones own agenda. Taking the Bible out of context in order to disprove its truths. What is self-serving? Denying that we are born corrupt, that we do wrong on a regular basis, that we deserve justice. What is self serving? Pushing away the freely offered salvation offered by God, because we are just fine without it, thank you very much. TheBlueOne, you talk of hypocrisy; but I suggest you take an introspective look before pursuing such condemnation any further. You might find that you resemble those remarks.
More to come.
- gramme, I was addressing Teleos more than you specifically.TheBlueOne
- gramme0
I have a question for dobs. You have claimed here and in other past conversations that you are not a sinner. How would you define "sinner"?
Have you ever lied? Have you ever broken someone's heart? Have you ever kicked someone's ass, or at least wished serious harm on someone? Have you ever cheated to get ahead? Have you ever been disrespectful to authority?
Have you ever felt guilty for wronging someone? Have you ever been compelled to apologize? Have you ever been offered the opportunity to helped someone, and yet ignored them?
I am sincerely interested in your answers.
Before you turn the questions back on me: yes, I have done all the things above, I was born with it in my nature to do those things. But I still have a choice. Examples of right, goodness and love have been displayed for me. I can choose either to display those good qualities, or to make bad decisions. Every day I am faced with such decisions of conscience.
- a sinner is a person who is a christian, that explains away their behavior by saying we are all sinners.mrdobolina
- I have done all of the things you stated, sure. But I would ask you, is the teachings of buddha wrong? You are basically saying the same thing.mrdobolina
- basically saying the same thing.mrdobolina
- I think what Dobs and I said was we weren't BORN sinners...TheBlueOne
- Absolutely.mrdobolina
- the bible was written by men not God, who is to say they were honest men? Surely not gramme or teleos.mrdobolina
- Hey, i worked long and hard at becoming a sinner, lots of hours spent in bars clubs and crack dens.... You gotta earn these badges....
dr_pangloss - Sinner = someone who is spiritually dead and is separated from the once maintained relationship with God by one man's sin.brandonrichards
- Mimio0
Ah yes, the cult of personal crisis.
- gramme0
Blue, you say that the concept of fallen nature is a hindrance to peace and happiness, that it keeps us from ridding the world of suffering. I say that denying fallen nature hinders us. When we say that people are inherently good but make bad decisions, we imply that they can work back to a "good" position. We being to blame our troubles on circumstance – i.e. "He had a rough childhood, so he is a product of his environment."
The notion of being born bad is most definitely nihilistic...if there is no way out. If there is no salvation, then we are doomed. Such is the case outside of the gospel. There is life, there is death, there is no purgatory, nothing else.
A Christian does not walk around making sure he is in God's good graces. The Christian is forever placed in God's good graces when he repents of his sin and claims Christ as the payer of his debt. It is done, delivered, finished, and it does not need to be done again. I don't simply take my interpretation of scripture from my preacher or Christian friends; sure, I listen to those older and wiser, but I also read the Bible for myself and judge critically how to interpret various passages.
I agree that we belong here. I do believe though that we are built for something more. I think this is why everyone worships something. Most people don't know they worship, but from what I have witnessed, it is inavoidable. That which is most important to you – that is your god, or gods as the case may be. We all have idols we fall back on – whether it's the approval of others, clean rationalistic humanism, a girlfriend, our careers, our cars, and of course the most common vice, money – you name it, we worship it. It's in our blood, Jim.
- mrdobolina0
I'm tired of you half-way telling us we are all wrong for our interpretations of the world. You are right and we are all wrong, Can you see how infuriating that is?
- Yes I can, nothing seems to infuriate people more these days than absolute truth.gramme
- I proclaim it because I have been commanded to do so. Whether people like what they hear is of no concern to me.gramme
- In other words, the truth is a thing that is bigger than me. I did not author it, I merely acknowledge and live accordingly.gramme
- ...accordingly.gramme
- are you paying your 10% to the church? keeps the "truth" coming.sea_sea
- I do pay my tithe, and gladly because the church needs money to do good (missionaries must eat, etc.)gramme
- JKilla770
My stance on religion. If you can tell me "WHY" you religion is better with out bias then and only then will I be able to believe you. The problem is though in order to do that you would have to have an in depth knowledge of other religions which I'm sure most people who argue the loudest do not have. Arguing without understanding the opposite side is the equivalent of telling someone is wrong as they are about to say it.
Arguing for a religion is exactly the same as arguing against it. Either side you take your pushing your beliefs on to someone else who opinion differers from yours. The only proper course is to not force a belief, pro or con, on anyone.
There should be only discussion and this can only occur when both sides can see validity in the others point of view. Otherwise it's just really a waste of time.
- And this is never going to happen, so I have already quit.Jaline
- ********0
I do not want or wish 'Christ to take away my sins', whatever meaning that honestly has outside of christian lore.., I wish to take full responsibility for my actions, both good and bad..
They say that 'redemtion through christ' is a free gift, ours to take - how exactly does one DO this ? Is it something that you can 'choose' to believe, or is it something that just **bing!!** becomes self-evidently true ? I cannot do the first, and the second just hasnt happened for me.
This 'free gift' sounds a rather dodgy concept to me - its free, but if you don't take it, you're damned to an eternal suffering - some choice. 'What if I don't understand it/cant choose to believe it'.
Sorry - its a rigged game, mate - you're fucked..
Bugger.
And please please try to explain this to me WITHOUT using that weired language which exists only in religion, please JUST use vernacular english and show your workings in the margin.. JUST make your explaination sound as moribund as explaining a principle of mechanics, or a marketing plan, or what you had for dinner...real....easy...words.
Go!
- vrmbr0
could someone summarize all this?
- TheBlueOne0
Moses was high.
- ********0
Believing in gods is so primitive. Man, i am sick of being polite and politically correct. Religions get too much respect. If you believe in a god, you're a fucking dumbass. That's all, you're just a dumb motherfucker. Go pray to a lamp, same shit.
- I feel the same, but suffer the children, eh Ant ?********
- No more time or candy for those suka's.dr_pangloss
- I feel the same, but suffer the children, eh Ant ?
- Khurram0
so all this cos gramme shagged some prude with a hang-up about sex.
this is why the cult of the Christ child is so fucked up. it makes you create an identity out of "sin". Forget anything positive you might have done before your "redemption", forget all the things that you could possibly be proud of, be happy about - people's lives you might have touched in a good way. Fuck all that. No, let's just focus in on your moments of human weakness, moments of regret, times when you acted below your own standards (or the standards you adopted from society) and lets just focus on that crap, and blow them out of all proportion. Let's just create an identity out of THOSE moments. No it's not that you DiD "sin", no, you ARE a "sinner". And as such, it's not enough simply to change your behaviour, no you need identity level change. You need to go through a grand ceremony with robed priests and be annointed into a cult all like "Laaaaaaaaa! And the angels came from heaven and cleansed thee of thy sins!"
Take some fucking responsibility, for Chrst's sake (hehe). i do/done shit i'm not proud of, but i learn to forgive myself. i learn to deal with it, LiKE A MAN. i DON'T make an identity out of it. i don't make an identity out of anything. identity is fluid. Oh but the "ego" needs an "identity", it needs to know it's place in the order of things. Fuck that shit. Accept the moment, accpet the now, surrounded to the NOW, that's all there is (this is why Buddhism is the only half-way decent religious system).
Yeah but some people really need somebody else to tell them that they're "good". They can't just deal with self-acceptance. Fucking children with their enfeebled brains.
This confirms my belief that Christ is for pussies.
MAN THE FUCK UP! Take responsibility! Create your own internal values/standards to live up to.
That's wot i think anyway...
- Fariska0
... and live in peace and do no shit where is possible.
- gramme0
Khurram, I hope you are being intentionally disingenuous. You are the king of fools if you actually think it's as simple as "all this cos gramme shagged some prude with a hang-up about sex." Here's the thing: I DID take responsibility for my mistakes, all the innumerable ones that happened before, during and after I shagged some prude with a sexual hang-up. I realized that nothing I could ever do would clean up the mess caused by my lies, my sleeping around, my stealing, my blasphemy and my selfish habits. Sure, I owned up. I confessed all to my parents about how while living at home in college I totally said "fuck off" to all of their rules behind their backs. I asked forgiveness of the girl who I'd coerced into a sexual relationship. I admitted my fault to the friends I had hurt and attempted to repair broken relationships.
But this was all not enough. It did not matter how much cleanup I did, how I learned from my actions. Because sin was and is in my nature, I was unclean. I needed someone, something, bigger than a human being who could pay penance on my behalf. We are fools when we believe we can pay penance and that does it. Our good deeds are as filthy rags before a perfect God – the literal Biblical translation in the Bible is used menstrual cloths. Bloody nasty, I know. But it's there. Isaiah 64: 5–7:
"You [God] come to the help of those who gladly do right, who remember your ways. But when we continued to sin against them, you were angry. How then can we be saved? All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away. No one calls on your name or strives to lay hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us and made us waste away because of our sins."
To say that self-acceptance solves the need for people to be told they are good implies a complete lack of understanding of what sin is, and how human nature works. To say I should "create my own internal values/standards to live up to" implies that I have the final say, God does not matter, there is no truth but my truth, we are all moral and spiritual islands, and fuck a standard because a standard does not, cannot exist outside the borders of my own paradigm.
Do you see how incredibly self-centered and self-serving that viewpoint is? Who are you to determine truth? Have you fathomed space, time, the physical and the metaphysical? I cannot claim to know the truth based on some internal compass. My internal compass is fucked. Yeah, sure we all have consciences (evidence of a soul, but that's another issue), but we sear them by violating them. Further, none of us is born wise. We do not understand true love, true faith, forgiveness, righteousness. It must be revealed from a greater source. That source must be one that CAN transcend space and time. That source MUST be bigger than me, or we descend into chaos. This is already the way of the world. The fact that we accept the genocide of unborn children and yet raise the outcry against global warming is a case in point about the chaos that ensues when personal morality trumps the greater morality.
Look, belief or non-belief in God has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence. It is a matter of revelation. God and the scriptures either make sense to you, or they don't. This is the working of the Holy Spirit, not some feat of philosophical strength. The word of God is madness to the man who lives outside of it, until God reveals it's truth to him. So be it.
I am glad that I am not in charge of my own spiritual well-being – just look around and see what a cock-up the world in general does at that job. I'd rather not place my faith in my own limited, weak little frame, thank you very much. That knowledge makes me strong – stronger than you could ever fathom Khurram, without actually experiencing it yourself.
- mrdobolina0
In summary, religion is guilt.
- gramme0
miko:
I have being trying to speak in the plainest English I know, but I will try harder since you seem to be genuinely unfamiliar with some certain terms in Christian theology/philosophy.
Taking full responsibility for my actions means that I fully understand the wrong I have committed. It means I understand how it affects me and others. When I truly come to terms with my mistakes, I realize that I cannot scrub out the stain, I cannot bury my mistakes under a pile of good deeds. When something is rotten, all the perfume in the world cannot cover it. When you go to the gym and your armpits stink, you don't just put on more deodorant, do you? You take a shower, you get clean. I know the metaphor sucks and breaks down at this point, because when it comes to the mistakes we make every day, we cannot make ourselves clean. This is because we get up and do it all over the next day. We keep fucking up. It's inevitable.
When I take responsibility for my actions, I realize how hurtful they are not just to other people, but to God. This is because God is perfect, he does no wrong, he loves unconditionally – and this is how we repay him. He demands perfection for us to be in communion with him. Since we cannot be perfect, we are screwed. We need someone to take our place. This is the only way we can have a relationship with God: he must provide someone else to carry our burdens. Only God can quench God's anger and restore us to his good graces. Thankfully, God is a three-in-one entity – three personalities. God sacrificed his only son, Jesus (who was and is equally God) so that we can be considered holy. This is the only way we can be made right with God.
Miko, redemption is as you say a free gift. But before the gift can have any meaning to me, I have to believe that I need the gift. Only the third member of the Trinity, God's Holy Spirit, can reveal this to a person. All my explanations only help so much in that they present the truth and make it available to those who are not inclined to consider Christianity on their own – but the truth must take root in you for it to be of any value.
This is why Christians like me talk about their faith: because we don't want anyone left behind. I tell you, miko, and you, dobs about my faith because I give a shit about you. The time I spend here bears that out. I am sorry if anything I say offends. I am truly interested in only befriending people and sharing the gift I have been given; otherwise, it rots within me if I keep it to myself, and I bear the blame at the end when Christ asks me how I spread the good news, and I have nothing to show for my time on earth because I was too scared or too callous to describe the gospel to those in need of it.
- gramme0
In summary, religious rules and rigor that are concerned with the letter of the law are guilt-producing and useless.
following the spirit of the law, as opposed to the letter, leads to freedom.
I will be the first to say that not every word in the Bible is actual history. Much of it is lesson delivered in metaphor and parable. Some passages use descriptive device, such as the visions of Daniel. All of it must be taken in context. But it is all good for learning and teaching, and it is all the word of God, delivered through our fellow men.
- sea_sea0
gramme:
You have to understand one thing my friend.
We are all on different paths.
I get that yours is to try to save as many (miko and dobs I think are the only black sheep here, ok me to now) from being "left behind".
have you ever thought of the possibility, even for a second, that the teachings you grew up with might in fact be wrong? don't panic!
ok it's natural to panic... but we are "thinking humans"... so we must a some point question.. don't you think? as you try to "change" our mind to match yours, you must realize that's not how it works.Come on, I grew up Catholic/Christian and boy was there an awakening, a true "second coming" when I finally realized I was the only one who could "redeem" myself. Yes I believe in a higher power, and I also believe I am inherently good. which by default eliminates the whole original sin thing for me. you don't have to wait for an after life to visit heaven or hell... how many people are living hell / war / fear right now? too many! while others choose a heaven on earth (hey that's in the bible too) heaven is in the heart and in the mind.
The only thing that will be "left behind" is ignorance and fear.
I'm sorry but the teachings of Christ apply to everyone, even if your part of a church community or not. That would in it self go against his teachings!I feel for you and your efforts to save as many poor souls, but lets put it this way... we're all exactly where we need to be.
peace.