Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
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- Nairn0
Zionism - "Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews"
This is not exactly comparable to the state of being British or French, which are established countries, with coherent populations established in the same location for well over a thousand years.
As far as I recall, Zionism as modern movement came from Eastern Europe at the end of the 19th century, a part of the world where, welcome or not, modern day Jews had a home to live in and call their own - witness, at least, Russia, which had a sizable and assimilated Jewish population (you can mention pogroms, but many people had a shitty time of it back then - later on, Jews were a significant element of Russian political circles and the intelligentsia).
During the last nearly 2500 years, the vast bulk of the Jewish population grew outside of old Israel, that country being taken over by other Semite tribes of different religions, but the same original stock. Times, places and people change. Significantly so, in the case of your homeland.
The move to return in the first half of the last century, after over 2000 years, was purely politically motivated - a land grab by an established middle class - it's your version of colonialism, as I see it - more rich white westerners taking more slices of the third world.
In that regard, I suppose you are correct - Zionist Israel was similar to Britain and France - they were all colonial forces.
In the modern, non-discriminatory world though, extending one ideology's sovereignty over another's land and people (no matter how few Palestinian farmers were claimed to be there originally) isn't seen as positively as it once was.
You'll notice I've not mentioned any Biblical claims to whatever rights you claim - they're utterly spurious and irrelevant.
- ********0
now thats a fair and balanced view, i believe.
- laurus0
Calling the trickle of poor individuals and groups with scarce resources colonialists and comparing them to British, French, Dutch, Spanish, Belgian and Portuguese armada backed financial enterprise imperialism, is either malicious or ignorant.
And since my parents grew up under British occupation, I can tell you, it was not benevolent.
I notice you ignore the fact that there was consecutive Jewish life in Israel, throughout the last 2000 years. But that really doesn't matter. Also, another fact that is often overlooked is the fact that the Jews that did settle since the late 1900s until the mid 20s, bought the lands, which Arabs were more than happy to get rid of – which is very different from what the French or British did. It wasn't until the mid 20s, when the Arab population, driven by envy of the success (of drying swamplands and managing to fertilize what was barren land) that the Arabs started trying to drive the Jews out by force. The Palestinian nationalist movement started even later. Guess what, it didn't work for them. They tried very forcefully in 1948 and they lost. Did they found a country then? No – although they had The Gaza strip, the west bank and parts of Jerusalem (including the JEWISH QUARTER) – they live under Jordanian and Egyptian rule. When they tried to rebel in Jordan, 1200 of them were killed in one day (black September), but when Jordanians killed Palestinians, the world sees it as their internal business. In 1967, under threat of inhalation, the declared Goal of the Arab countries, Israel hit back.
This is actually when the occupation begun. And this is the situation that needs to be addressed. Because frankly, As much as I am for peace, I support nuking anyone that wants to destroy my country, where my grandparents, parents and children lived and are living.
My father did not have grandparents or uncles. We lost a chain of department stores we owned in Germany. The holocaust was not just the making of Germany, they were eagerly helped by French, Dutch, Polish and refugees were sent back to Germany by the US, Britain Canada and other countries. My grandfather was imprisoned by the British for smuggling Jews out of Europe during the Holocaust. So I'm not saying give us back what was ours, as I understand it is impracticable and my culture and heritage are Israeli, so I wouldn't want to live in the countries my grandparents came from (plus, it would be difficult to live in four different countries). But Let us be.
And saying that lots of people had a shitty time is ignoring the last 2000 years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant…
And the few Jews that were part of the Soviet regime pale in comparison to the numbers of Jews persecuted by it.
But again, all this history and statistics don't matter. The fact is, that there is a state of Israel with 7 million people (Jewish, Muslim and Christians) and there are around two million Palestinians living under Israeli occupation on top of that (in the west bank an Gaza). This needs to be solved in a manner that addresses the future, not the past. The only way this could happen is two countries for two peoples. And this is what Ahmadinejad and the likes of him don't want to happen, because a solution will leave people time and energy to start paying attention to his regime ans what it is doing.
- ********0
I realise now the little I know of this matter - how far it goes.
Damned newspapers.
- TheBlueOne0
Damned newspapers.
Witt
(Sep 26 07, 01:10)Why do you think there is so much editorial heat in all the various media against "experts" and academics? Cause it'll kill their little baseless arguments dead. Gotta keep 'em agitated.
- obsolete0
why not call israel and palestine something else and create a new country....
a state with an official religion is a bit XV century, isn't it?
religion doesn't have space in the state... I guess europe grew out of it.... and most people condem the arab countries that profess an official religion....
I might be wrong, but if you can live with your neighbor, independetly of its religion, it doesn't mather the name of the country...
- mrdobolina0
The guy is a dick, but no reason to bomb him. I don't know anyone who thinks the US should invade Iran. Get ready for Oil to rise over 120 a barrel if it does happen.
- ********0
The guy is a dick...
mrdobolina
(Sep 26 07, 04:50)Ahmadinecheney?
- tommyo0
Laurus,
Thanks for that brief summarization. Your post has made me realize I need to learn more about the history of this conflict. Any fair and correct books you might recommend? I'm sure there are plenty on the subject, and I'm sure that a fair amount of those have agendas.
Thanks again,
- ********0
Calling the trickle of poor individuals and groups with scarce resources colonialists and comparing them to British, French, Dutch, Spanish, Belgian and Portuguese armada backed financial enterprise imperialism, is either malicious or ignorant.
laurus
(Sep 26 07, 00:48)I take issue with most of what you say, but i can only be bothered to comment on this...
Colonists are always "poor individuals" with "scarce resources".
The "founding fathers" of the US were poor persecuted religious minorities who fled to Imperial British territory in America.
The colonisers of Australia were convicts and desperate poor of Victorian England who set up home in Oz.
Ditto the Dutch and British farmers who set-up home in the Transvaal and the rest of South Africa.
When Britain ruled Palestine after 1918, under the Balfour decleration, they decided to set-up home there for Europe's Jews. Poor? Yes, they always are.
During British rule, Jewish terrorist groups, the Irgun and Stern gangs, fought to overthrow the British.
After 1948, they set about emptying Palestinian villages, and engaging in ethnic cleansing, such as at Deir Yassin.
After 1967 Israel continued to expand and colonise Palestinian territory, with non-stop settlement building on all Palestinian land for 40 years. As well as the relentless importing of populations, with extremely tenuous links to Judaism, to live on these lands.
- mrdobolina0
here's a novel idea: The United States should not be Israel's fucking bodyguard in the world.
- ********0
Any fair and correct books you might recommend?
tommyo
(Sep 26 07, 05:55)lol, you only seek that which reinforces your prejudices....
try these for a laugh!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Palestin…
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ethnic-C…
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Reportin…
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Israels-…
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Aparthei…
(All written by Israeli Jews by the way)
Or you could try the Israeli education system...
- Drno0
Why Can’t We All Just Get Along?
Rodney King
(pre-taser era)
- ********0
Here is a question. If the Jewish party wants to establish a home base in Israel does this mean that the Jewish politic implies that the people are oppressed in USA?
ok i have said my question.
- ********0
or asked.
- mrdobolina0
your question makes no sense.
- tommyo0
lol, you only seek that which reinforces your prejudices....
Kuz
(Sep 26 07, 06:27)How did you get that from my question?
- tommyo0
Actually...on second read of the post you were referring to...I have absolutely no clue why you would make that remark about my question. I even acknowledged that I'm sure many of the books available have an 'agenda.' So what makes you think I might be seeking false knowledge? I don't even have prejudices to be reinforce.
- laurus0
Kuz,
The British did not encourage the Jews. As mentioned, my grandfather sat in a British prison for smuggling Jews out of Europe during WWII.
And ye, 600,00 Arabs where driven by force in a war started by the same Arabs in 1948.That's what happens when you start wars, you can tell how they'll end. What you neglected to mention is that 700,000 Jews were chased out of Arab countries, starting 1941 with the massacre in Iraq. Mind you, the Jews lived in Iraq (and there's plenty of documentation) Before Islam even existed. I don't hear your plea for justice here.
The Palestinians continue to be victims because it's in the best interest of the Muslim leaders of the region who'd rather talk about destruction of other countries than do something for their own people. Does Ahmadinejad talk about investing in peace or a prosperous middle east? Does Binladen? No, they'd rather blame everything on Israel and the US and the rest on the infidels. They rather destroy, not build.
And when I had frank conversations with Palestinian friends, they'll admit to it.
See this:
- ********0
Your hair is so cool.