Creationist Lies 666 apologies
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- Kuz0
in this thread? where did i get personal eficks..?
- canuck0
don't give yourself the credit, it was a deed of Satan and you act like that is something to be proud about or expect forgiveness for having buddies in high places.
no way
Hym
(Jun 15 05, 16:41)I can't be bothered reading the rest, but Satan's number was 616. Not 666.
Carry on with your nonsense.
- eficks0
this thread is by no means the start
- todelete__20
what the hell?!? i see like 20 some posts in here.
what the hell is going on?
- skt0
Does god still create life? Or was it only in the begining. Is a virus a life form? Was CJD here all along?
- Kuz0
it is actually, if you read anything on thermodynamics, pretty ridiculous to use that 2nd law to things like life, humans, houses, cars, watches, god, philosophy, what does it all mean? questions.
2nd law has nothing to do with that, and i think you know it aswell discipler.
- discipler0
Are you listening to me? Degradation? The second law of thermodynamics is about the SPREADING OF ENERGY. Not degradation, disorder, "messiness" etc...
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Wrong! The spread of energy leads to the inevitable depletion of the energy and hence breakdown and degridation. Read what both evolutionists AND I.D. proponents teach!
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Again, you are extrapolating the 2nd law to areas where it has no concern being in. The second law is about THERMO-DYNAMICS. THERMO meaning heat, and energy. Not information. That is wholly a different topic.
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Correct. Heat. Energy and tendency toward randomness and degridation. Everything I (scientists!) have said is consistent. You don't understand the definition, evidently.
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No. See, this is your error. This "act" as you call it, developed over millions, if not billions of years, in the insane conditions during the formation of earth. It wasn't a "random act" as you try and misinterpret it. It was the pressure put on by the earths environment on increasingly complex molecules.
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Complete and utter argument from silence that flies in the face of confirmed scientific findings. TIME does not matter. A trillion years would not produce the complexity of a single cell. Random natural forces (which would still require a causal factor) cannot exert selective pressures on something non-functioning in the first place. No factor, NO factor can produce irreducibly complex biological machines. Even if the constituent parts were available (but those need a causal factor as well).
- TheTick0
You know in science there is a thing called "strange attractors", otherwise points in a system where the material or energy of that system clumps together.
I have just realized any thread with the words "creationist", "god" or "jesus" is a strange attractor fopr Discupler. He hardly posts in any other thread of any other topic, althoug hhe did point out yesterday that yes, porn is a bad addiction in that relevant thread.
I am sooo out of this thread now...
Peace...
- discipler0
Get the 411:
- JazX0
I am sooo out of this thread now...
Peace...
TheTick
(Jun 16 05, 07:19)ahhh you caught on to the endless argument
- Kuz0
*slaps face
1. Wrong! The spread of energy leads to the inevitable depletion of the energy and hence breakdown and degridation.
LISTEN CAREFULLY - Depletion of energy (spreading out) is ONE thing DEGRADATION is quite another. The 2nd law is not a predictor of disorder or degradation or "messiness" - The second law states that energy tends not to be restricted to one or a few energy levels in atoms and molecules, but to be dispersed to as many such levels as possible – rephrased in homely terms involving molecules, "Intense or concentrated energy tends to spread out and diffuse". THAT IS ALL IT IS SAYING. An atom can lose energy and BECOME MORE STRUCTURALLY COMPLEX (Thereby destroying your information theory argument)
observe:
The simplest organic compounds, called alkanes and composed only of carbon and hydrogen, contain portions or sections with one carbon atom holding two or three hydrogen atoms. Spectroscopic evidence for these characteristic alkane sections has been found throughout space. Alkanes with two to five carbon atoms joined to one another (and hydrogens attached to each carbon) are all lesser in energy than their elements. Therefore, the second law says irrefutably that they could be formed spontaneously from carbon and hydrogen with the net evolution of energy. Their structural pattern is not vastly complex but it is far more so than that of individual elements.
- skt0
Do I not get an answer discipler? Or was the link to that site it?
- Kuz0
2. Correct. Heat. Energy and tendency toward randomness and degridation. Everything I (scientists!) have said is consistent.
No no no no. Now you are confusing to very different ideas. Do you understand the difference between spontaneous and non-spontaneous formation of complexity. Earth at its early history had masses amount of radiation energy pumping into these molecules, causing reactions.
observe:
In contrast, those quite complicated alkanes with six or more joined carbon atoms in their molecules have greater energy within them than the elements from which they are composed. Thus, their formation would require the input of energy from outside themselves – intensely powerful ultraviolet or even x-rays, each of which are plentiful in many parts of the universe. Syntheses of these longer alkanes would be a process that is thermodynamically non-spontaneous. Spectroscopic evidence is not able to determine the number of carbon atoms in the total alkanes whose fragments are clearly present in space. However, spontaneously or non-spontaneously formed, they are complex and they are out there!
see?
- Kuz0
3. Complete and utter argument from silence that flies in the face of confirmed scientific findings. TIME does not matter. A trillion years would not produc
What do you mean argument of silence? I was simply stating that this wasn't an "act" but a process of billion years. If you want to get into the feasibility of this process, then thats a whole difference argument.
- JazX0
Muse - Thoughts Of A Dying Atheist: http://www.machnewmedia.com/mp3/…
- discipler0
*blocks slap and sticks proper definition in kuz's face
It IS partially a universal law of decay; the ultimate cause of why everything ultimately falls apart and disintegrates over time. Material things are not eternal. Everything appears to change eventually, and chaos increases. The LAW observes the FACT that the useable energy in the universe is becoming less and less. Ultimately there would be no available energy left. Stemming from this fact we find that the most probable state for any natural system is one of disorder. All natural systems degenerate when left to themselves - to deny this is to deny a confirmed law. It indeed IS a predictor of degradation on both a macro and microbial level. An atom may become more structurally complex, while universally, degradation is occuring - ULTIMATELY LEADING TO THE DEGRIDATION OF THE ATOM.
To attempt to say that the 2nd law causes the spontaneous generation of any particle is just silly and has no scientific evidence to support such a claim. NOW WATCH THIS: It is well known that, left to themselves, chemical compounds ultimately break apart into simpler materials; they do not ultimately become more complex. Outside forces can increase order for a time (through the expenditure of relatively large amounts of energy, and through the input of design). However, such reversal cannot last forever. Once the force is released, processes return to their natural direction - greater disorder. Their energy is transformed into lower levels of availability for further work. The natural tendency of complex, ordered arrangements and systems is to become simpler and more disorderly with time.
Thus, in the long term, there is an overall downward trend throughout the universe. Ultimately, when all the energy of the cosmos has been degraded, all molecules will move randomly, and the entire universe will be cold and without order. To put it simply: In the real world, the long-term overall flow is downhill, not uphill. All experimental and physical observation appears to confirm that the Law is indeed universal, affecting all natural processes in the long run.
Naturalistic Evolutionism requires that physical laws and atoms organize themselves into increasingly complex and beneficial, ordered arrangements. Thus, over eons of time, billions of things are supposed to have developed upward, becoming more orderly and complex.
However, this basic law of science (2nd Law of Thermodynamics) reveals the exact opposite. In the long run, complex, ordered arrangements actually tend to become simpler and more disorderly with time. There is an irreversible downward trend ultimately at work throughout the universe. Evolution, with its ever increasing order and complexity, appears impossible in the natural world.
*slaps beer out of kuz's hand, takes a swig of it, hands it back to kuz and then kisses him on cheek and rests case.
- Kuz0
Nice attempt at obscurantism discipler. I think you deliberately mix several interrelated topics together to make urself sound right. That's what those websites you posted seem to do.
But you know, i'm a 2nd law blackbelt 3rd dan now. And anyfink you say, i'll knock down in a second
biaaaatch! ;)
- Kuz0
1. Material things are not eternal. Everything appears to change eventually, and chaos increases
I'm getting sick and tired of you. Look, MATE, The second law is not about chaos, decay, breaking down etc. etc. I gave you an example of how structurally more complex (chaotic molecules) form by LOSING energy. It has been observed.
You're definition is a twisted metaphorical idea of A MATHEMATICAL CONCEPT.
How many times? Decay? Degradation? Disorder? THESE ARE WHOLLY DIFFERENT LINGUISTIC CONSTRUCTS. Not the second law of thermodynamics?
Jesus, what is wrong with you?
- discipler0
skt - it depends on what sort of life you are referring to. I believe God governs certain aspects of that which he set into motion (and in a more holistic sense, governs it all).
viruses - I believe the only answer to this is a Theological one. I believe, before the fall of man, the earth was in a paradise state. After the fall, when decay was introduced, certain mutations occured. Things that may have been "good" at one time, slowly became corrupt.
- Kuz0
explain this then, if you think all chemical compounds break down:
PAHs composed only of carbon and hydrogen contain more energy within their molecules than do elemental carbon and hydrogen. Therefore, their synthesis from the elements is thermodynamically non-spontaneous. Nevertheless, these PAHs detected in space would have been formed "automatically", i.e., without any organismic intervention (!). Energy would have been supplied to the process, probably via powerful bursts of radiation from many kinds of stellar and similar sources.
Even more convincing evidence of the existence of PAHs in space and in other parts of the universe is their presence in meteorites that have fallen to the earth. Extremely careful isolation of carbon-containing substances from some meteorites has proved the presence of specific polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons.