EU : NO
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- ********0
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can't really understand what you're saying Kuz
- vb_0
"good to see political debate on the "euro" side of things."
well finally eh?
and i think, no i am even sure, we should have a euro wide intense debate about what we want. all sorts of organizations and media should get on it and let everyone speak.
instead of putting something together in brussels and let people only say yes/no.
there can be a euro constitution in the future.
but clearly not one like the one that has been forced down our throats.
there's an enormous sense of a European unity and friendship evolving. let's not kill this very fragile and precious process by molesting it with a bureaucratic halfbaked foundation.
[ imho ]
- ********0
aww, sweet janne
well put mate
- vb_0
just checked bbc.. NO went from 55% to 56%.
respect the peoples will i'd say.
- vb_0
cheers, Kuz.
- ********0
that's a good "ihmo".
but when will it ever be something not bureaucratic i wonderly wonder?
love t'y'all anyways.
It should be written in Esperanto... but #$%# who'd read it?
- ********0
Fuck me...
Our generation is really limp on politics. We're to blame. We abandoned it. For myself I must take what is there to know and judge not as knowledgable as I could wish.
I'm really sorry and ashamed for my lack of arguments on this.
Go Europe! that's all I can say from my heart.
- kodap0
Im up for a yes
- ********0
so am I.
In Portugal we've had a lot of benefits but we've also had a lot to let go of our own in compromise. It's not all about the the money.
I'm sticking to that compromise and I'm willing to work for those who come next and pay back.
I'm on. I'm not afraid.
- vb_0
well let's see what comes from this no. i hope we will finally get the intense discussion i have waited to see.
you may want to marry, but you only really get to know each other after your first serious argument.
- ********0
true. true.
i'm waiting from the EU a resume of all major topics and the full text of the Constitution in a daily newspaper.
That would be a serious sign of intentions.
Unfortunately people are voting from hearsay and by the most immediate principles.
- kodap0
I'll get back to this discussion tomorrow to validate my points, Janne.
there are different reasons from country to country. Better social conditions and balanced weights are the main focus of my yes.
- vb_0
i hear you kodap.
both left and right wing parties here are on the YES side. Well the active politicians are anyway. A lot of these parties passive members are actually on the NO side.
the YES people defend many serious issues like social conditions, environmental issues, animal rights etc.
all of which i find extremely important as well.
my major pet peeve is the fact that some are too fanatic about it while most people still remain in the dark as to what will be beneficial for them.. and most of all: at this point in time i have not enough faith in the current political ambitions in Brussels.
We need more, deeper insight in the real intentions of this constitutions.
I mean: Why are only the active politicians so fanatically campaigning for a YES while the passive members of these parties are in serious doubt?
that, to me, is a good enough reason to postpone this and get things straightened out first.
i am curious to hear your opinions, kodap!
:)
- ********0
.
^ good point.
It's all a matter of familiarity in Europe so they say to my disbelief.
I wish it wasn't so much corporative about discussion but rather an open one.
god speed.
- shaft0
Kuz says:
"shaft, Art II 87-94 has nothing to do with french-style socialism. And, furthermore, every single law within it, has a corresponding US law."I think not in their constitution? Sadly, today's USA is more Keynesist than ever.
"Even the United States does not outlaw trade unions, and the right for collective action. They have strikes in that country too."
I don't think strikes are anything else than blackmail. Workers can sabotage your business and cause loss, but you can't fire them for it. BTW isn't Great Britain the last EU country where lock-out is legal?
"Nor does this law, as it explicitly states, takes precedent over national laws regarding the nature of strikes."
I know that, it's just that once embedded in the constitution, it will be hard to move out, but easy to expand. They move by tiny steps. Same with other laws we discuss, IMO the constitution is not a place for this extent of specification.
"Again, every developed country has laws regarding working conditions. Including maternity leave etc. The United States even has minimum wage - which the EU Constitution does not eve propose. So how again is this a move away from US Capitalism and towards French socialism? Another non-sequater."
I believe that adult people should be allowed to take their own decisions. Ie. to be employed in conditions that come from their agreement with the employer, not from a nanny government. If I want to work below minimum wage, it's none of govt's business.
Personal freedom is a major value for me and I didn't notice that emphasized in the EU constitution."This is what happens when people simply regurgitate idiotic websites without actually reading for themselves."
Actually I read it first, before reading any specific comments, but I'm not sure if you're gonna buy this:]
My poor English thanks you for "regurgitate" - I'm glad I'm learning something from NT ;)I guess you differ in your opinion, but I believe that protective government slowly takes your freedom away, justifying its decisions with "social justice", which eventually brings the economy down.
IMO growth comes from competition and protection causes stagnation. Free market regulates itself better than any burreaucrats could do. I was happy to see Blair (who is way more Thatcherist than so-called"right-wing" Chirac) let Rover go down.
And as a disclaimer in case you say I'm patronizing: It's just my opinion.One thing I am afraid of is that the next edition of constitution will have much larger "solidarity" section, will be more protective, more socialist, to please French leftists, the ones who just have said NO. On the other hand, some countries might not like it at all, so chances are there'll be no constitution for a long time. Which is more than fine by me.
You don't have a constitution in the UK, do you? How have you guys managed to survive without it and to lead the EU economically?
- shaft0
Kuz says:
"That is absolutely ridiculous. The EU human rights charter already safe-guards civil liberties to a much greater extent then any single EU nation. Alien legal systems with little regard for the presumption of innocence? lol."You didn't read my Tillack story links, did you?
http://newstoday.com/pv-an/view_…
Yes, call me an obsessive maniac, but I believe that EU is on a way to slowly become a totalitarian superpower, by slowly taking away our freedoms "for our protection", just as Bush does. And that the constitution was a tiny step towards it.
IMO a recipe for a safe and strong Europe could be to have a free trade zone of competing and differing countries. This plus Schengen. And that's all.I don't really like to argue here, it's all just my opinion which I don't expect anyone to agree with. I'd rather discuss it by a couple of beers with you someday.
- ********0
well yeah me too shaft, and fair enough it's a matter of opinion.
but ya came across as a bit of a provocative wanker with your - did your TV teach you that comment ;)
anyway, yeah, whatever, fair enough - everyone has opinions. I dont realy care whether we have a constitution or not (as i said right at the beginning) i just like to see fair, and balanced debate
:)
no worries man!
- Fariska0
What a Bad taste!
Well, in Italy we have already approved EU constitution. But without voting, Just the government ratified it (and for a time the parties stopped to fight)
- vb_0
"Well, in Italy we have already approved EU constitution. But without voting, Just the government ratified it (and for a time the parties stopped to fight)"
So you would not like to be consulted yourself, as a European?
- Fariska0
Yes I would.
But... you know the italian situation thesedays?http://www.economist.com/printed…
The image, to be VERY short is true. Italy's economy is in enormous troubles, and the Last government didn't anything for it but only lies.
Lies that dissolved in front of data of regression.
And EU, listening to extremists, is seen like a cage for "our spirit and our nation".
This is BULLSHIT: in the last decade Italy tried to rebuild a working political system, after the big corruption scandal that
discredited old parties and the whole proportional system.
Well, after 14 yers we italians believe that we are the smarties ones 'cause we cheat rules.
So, i'm glad that somone tell us how to behave, cause evidently, we are not able to do by ourselves.
It's sad, but this is the situation: we need a supervisor.
Europe is a kind of.(sorry for my english)