Arrest him
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- uberdesigner0
I forgot about the UK's involvement in Kosovo, my mistake.
As far as "besides, the fact is that you can't "spread" democracy" is totally false.
People say that the middle east can't be democratized. This is false. Remember what Japan was before it was a democracy? All people are attracted to voting.
- JazX0
Remember 'Black Hawk Down'?
- Kuz0
Cactus
Yes Russia did threaten to block UN resolutions to intervene in Serbia. But this is not the sole reason NATO was used. It was strategically important to undermine Russian influence in the region in an end of itself. Somalia was a very different situation, and quite frankly, it doens't fly as an excuse for ignoring Rawanda.
oh and spin on this
*shows finger
- Cactus0
Kuz,
Clinton used NATO rather than the UN to intervene in the Balkans because Russia threatened to block any attempt (sound familiar?) to restrain Serbia from carving up Bosnia Herzegovina. Another, inexcusable but understandable, reason for the failure to stop the Rwandan genocide was that it followed immediately upon the heels of the disastorous UN lead operation in Somalia.I must left the office temporarily but I hope the world hasn't stopped spinning on it's axis while away because I questioned the innate existence of Marxist thought.
- Kuz0
Cactus, that's exactly my point - it is about geopolitics not concern for humanitarian reaons. As i said, Clinton was eager to get involved in the Balkans to expand Nato eastwards (which is why he used NATO instead of the UN to attack the country) and to undermine Russian influence in the region. Not for humanitarian reasons - which is why he wasn't interested in Rawanda. Don't know how i can make it any clearer.
Oh and you can't just say "no Marxist economics", it's like saying "no Newtonian physics" or "no Darwinian Biology" (though i know a certain NT'r who would like to say that). It's just a discourse that uses macro-economics to explain geopolitics, "class" relations, and imperialism.
- Cactus0
I don't think there was much economical interest in Bosnia or Kossovo unless I am mistaken. The primary reason why action was taken there and not in Rwanda is that, if you look at the map, it is on western Europe's doorstep. To put it very simply, if there was a murder at your neigbors house and one that happened across town, which one would trouble you more? This is not to excuse the inaction during the Rwandan conflict but one must deal with the world as it is not how we would like it to be.
And please, no Marxist economics. Haven't we had enough of that...this is the 21st century FCS.
- CaP0
i know, Kuz... and it's a simple reason: nothing valuable there, not politically, not economically. wait until somebody find's oil in Rwanda or something, then "humanitarian reason" will surge just like that precious black gold.
it gave me the creeps...
-"If we use the word "genocide" and are seen doing nothing, what will be the effect on the November Congressional elections?"
and
- "Be careful," they said. "Legal at State was worried about this yesterday -- a Genocide finding could commit the U.S. government to actually do something." according to the 1948 Genocide Convention, signed also by USA.
- CaP0
i know, Kuz... and it's a simple reason: nothing valuable there, not politically, not economically. wait until somebody find's oil in Rwanda or something, then "humanitarian reason" will surge just like that precious black gold.
it gave me the creeps...
-"If we use the word "genocide" and are seen doing nothing, what will be the effect on the November Congressional elections?"
and
- "Be careful," they said. "Legal at State was worried about this yesterday -- a Genocide finding could commit the U.S. government to actually do something." according to the 1948 Genocide Convention, signed also by USA.
- Kuz0
Economics only plays a small part in this sad story.
Cactus
(Apr 13 05, 06:40)
====================
I think you need a lesson in Marxist discourse.Is you telling me, if the Balkans were in Africa, and Rawanda was in Europe, events would have played out just the same as they did in the 90s?
WRONG!
- Cactus0
CaP
I don't understand your point. Are you saying Rwanda was caused by Western indiffernce? By a failure to intervene? If so, you are just articulating another tiresome refrain of the White Man's Burden.And contrary to the prevailing wisdom, money is not the root cause of most conficts. Human emotions are what drive people to kill each other in large numbers. Economics only plays a small part in this sad story.
- _smk0
that was to Cactus btw.
//Kuz's talking shite obviously :)
- _smk0
good point, (though I don't entirely agree) I'm very busy right now, but will attempt to add something a bit later :)
- Kuz0
oh shit Cactus, i'm sorry for being cynical. I mean fucking hell, yeah
woteva
If they were that concerned about humanitarian crisis, they wouldn't have allowed Rawanda to happen under their nose, or Sudan as it is happening now. But those are niggers, and who gives a fuck about Africans
My reasoning ain't flawed, you just got too much faith in your politricktions.
- JazX0
Ahhhh, there you CaP, Rwanda. Smart man ansd yes very sad. Hell it's still happening on small levels throughout West Africa and Congo Kinshasa.
- CaP0
Cactus....
what you are saying is also very, very relative. we (as "westeners") only care of "peace" and "geopolitics" and "humanitarian effects" just -sadly- when there's another reason for that. call it politics, call it $$, call it whatever you want. check this out; some time ago, but still is very, very shameful.
- Cactus0
Kuz
Your reasoning about why the US intervened in the Balkans is flawed and cynical. Yes, it is in America's interest to contain Russia, as it was in its more rapacious incarnation, the USSR. But not in the cauldon of Balkan politics. The main reasoning was to prevent the war from spreading along with (yes) an undeniable humanitain aspect._smk
The moral relativism of your post is a stark reminder of Europe's malaise in regard to what happened in both Bosnia ans Kossovo. Not being able (willing?) to differentiate between good and evil leads to paralysis and inaction. How can one summon the strength to put one's life in jeopardy for a cause or an idea if plagued by such incertitudes. We, in western Europe, live in a post heroic societies. Geopolitically, this would not be a dangerous condition if it were not for the fact that the rest of the world is playing by different rules.
- CaP0
Well_____
_there's always
ETA's 1973 solution.
arriba Franco
mas alto que Carrero Blanco.
unfittoprint
(Apr 13 05, 05:27)++++
ha ha ha ha!! (although a bit extreme and not pollitically correct)...
- cybo0
'History is written by the winners - Alex Haley.'
'Fleetwood Fuckin Fact- Kuz'
:D
- unfittoprint0
Well_____
_there's always
ETA's 1973 solution.
arriba Franco
mas alto que Carrero Blanco.
- JazX0
Haaaaa along with all those other dudeds you've tried over the years at the Hague right? Somehow I don't think the Secret Service men are going to let that happen, but I'd like to see the drama.