Scottish independence
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- GeorgesII0
I know where they can land now
- lowimpakt0
people who argue against independence on purely rational terms don't get it and probably never will.
listening to BBC radio4 was interesting this morning. talk of a federal Britain with Scotland being the start of something significant.
all seriousness aside, there's definitely a bit of this at play
- lowimpakt0
Sem, trying to explain why London receives so much political, economic and media attention just underlines the argument independence.
The current situation is shite and it's not going to change unless Scotland stands up for it/her/himself.
- sem0
I think Scotland should have their own government, then they can take full responsibility for everything and stop hating on the rest of the UK for their situation. I've endured too many bitter Scott's telling me how life is all so great up there, yet they live in London.
I wish them luck basing their financial security on oil, I mean..having oil reserves has done wonders for other countries economies right? surely thats all you need? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis…
"Many Scots seem to think they are not voting for independence from the rest of the UK but for independence from the laws of economics which they seem to think have been imposed on them by the English. Unfortunately for those who think this, the laws of economics are not subject to referenda and will continue to exist beyond Scottish independence when it occurs,"
- < This. And half my family is Scots. Backward, sentimental thinkingbabaganush
- My great grandparents were Scotts but the attitude some have towards English is so retarded, esp when living here.sem
- goldieboy0
97% turned up to vote out of a registered 4.3 million
- Wolfboy0
@lowimpakt
"people who argue against independence on purely rational terms don't get it and probably never will."
That is it in a nutshell for me, I can't believe this kind of massive decision would be made on anything other than rational terms and it scare me that it's looking like it will not be.
As I've said previously the people I've spoken to directly can give no strong and sensible argument for the independence of Scotland other than a romanticised vision of the future having finally escaped the terrible oppression of the English. By the way, I'm yet to hear anyone actually telling me they want no part of the UK, only that they want away from the English (leaving the union almost seems a side effect to many of the Yes voters).
I tell you why this really scares me, it's a signifier for the next potential referendum - the one regarding the UKs place in the EU. The man on the street will happily listen to the chest beating empty words of men like Nigel Farage and Alex Salmond as is being proved at the moment both in England and in Scotland.
- sem0
"SNP accused of exaggerating North Sea oil reserves by up to 60%
Oil tycoon Sir Ian Wood says reserves will decline sharply within 15 years, raising questions about future Scottish economy"
- i_monk0
"It has not escaped the notice of us, your cousins from across the seas, that much of the case made by the Scottish Yes campaign is neatly described by our fuzzy 1980 question. “Sovereignty” but maintaining “an economic association”? Check. A new country, but also a plan to “negotiate a new agreement” with the old nation? Check. A Yes vote portrayed as promising co-operation rather than a severing of ties? Check. And the idea that you can leave but keep the currency? Sorry, we’ve heard this song before."
- lowimpakt0
from the polls I have seen more Scottish people than English want to remain in the EU. What's interesting is how UKIP and the madmen of the Orange Order are pushing for a no vote. It really undermines their emotional currency.
Having said that, there is as much of an emotional tie to the United Kingdom as there is for independence. You see all the members of public in London being interviewed saying how they like the "idea" of the Union but you can tell they really don't understand the lived experience of people north and west.
- babaganush0
@Rosko.
Given that Mark Carney has ruled out Scottish using GBP and Alex Salmond doesn't really know what implications an independent Scotland has in the Eurozone, are you happy that any savings you have will be extremely volatile. The Bank of England (whether you hate England or not) is a very stable underwriter. Look at the banks in Iceland etc...Your arguments as to the wilo-the-wisp of your mates talking about oil in the remotes of Scotland is crazy. Who will underwrite this from day dot in your country? Massive gamble.
- kingkong0
The Scots are being sold a false prospectus. Here are some of the falsehoods.
(1) We own the pound and CU is inevitable.
(2) The EU will accept us with open arms (without being obliged to sign away our sovereignty and adopt the Euro)
(3) Significant businesses are largely pro separation.
(4) Oil revenue is not falling and can only increase.
(5) The NHS is at risk if we stay in the Union.
(6) Taxes will not increase.
(7) Jobs are not at risk.
(8) Mortgages will not increase.
(9) Interest rates on borrowing will notincrease.
(10) The bitter divisiveness between the yes and no camps is not an issue either now or in the future.
(11) rUK will accede to all of our negotiation demands.
(12) Pensions are safe.
(13) The separation on offer is true independence.
(14) Salmond is not a disingenuous, blustering bully,
(15) Salmond does not wish to inherit the mantle of Robert the Bruce.
(16) Salmond has Scotland’s best future interests at heart.And the biggest lie of all perhaps:
(17) “Things can only get better” after separation!!
- benfal990
Alba gu bràth
- rosko_picachu0
Scotland will get independence, England will get dependence. Dependence on Westminster. Dependence on America, dependence on blood oil.
The world's messed up in lots of different ways. It's gonna take huge changes to try and create a fairer system. It's not gonna be easy, but it's worth a try.
I can think of many reasons why Independence is good for both sides but from Scotland's point of view, where do you think all the excess ammunition was dumped after the first and the second world wars? That stuff still washes up on our beaches.
Having Faslane is wonderful, but who is the number one target for a nuclear strike? Where are Russia and China's nuclear weapons aimed at?
Now bearing in mind Faslane was set up during a time when Nuclear war was deemed as a threat, who and why was the decision made, that it would be OK for Scotland to take the first nuclear hit, should that unimaginable situation arise?
So don't give me that stuff about demographics, we love being who we are and we are no different to anyone else. Just a wee country wanting to look after ourselves and not have to waste money on an elite system with too much bureacracy that wants to flaunt itself as a major player, which i'm afraid it no longer is.
What England is presiding over right now, is the most disastrous administration since Thatcher. It's a puppet administration to take money out the public sector and give it away to the private sector.
It's a system that bleeds money and quite honestly anything would be better. Look at Cameron, Farage, Johnson. these are joke figures as is i gues Salmond to the English. Difference is, Salmond will turn around after this goes through and open up elections whereas Cameron wants to cling to power. English people don't know the first thing about Salmond. But i guess the media power in England is very effective. You only have to look at the sacking of people like Greg Dyke from the BBC to see what path they've went down. It's not a very impartial one, it's dismissive impartiality.
- chossy0
Daft eh?
- Wolfboy0
This is my position on the independence and I'm an Northern English person but I prefer to think of myself as British and maybe that's why I've chosen to live in London (a bit more multicultural down here and all that).
My non-rational heart says the Union should stand. We're an island nation with many different places of local character all within a small area - for example I've lived for three years in Cornwall and I would say there is as much difference between the Cornish and the rest of the UK as there is between Scotland and the rest. I love the range of places and people in these islands and culturally it'll be a sadder place for losing some of them. I know Scotland is still there but it will be a foreign country and there'll be all the hassles of visiting any other country with a real border and different currency. Not a massive issue I guess, but again, we're not talking rationally are we?
From a rational point of view, I just don't see the positives of independence for anyone. I can't believe anyone trusts a word that comes out of Salmond’s mouth, he has no answers on any of the truly important questions. Currency, Europe; he just continually sidesteps the issues.
The risks are just too great - the Yes campaign want to keep a Sterling union and every political party down here says they can’t. But Salmond insists the UK will just cave in on this. Why would they cave in? Because he’s threatening not to take a fair share of the national debt with Scotland and I’m sure this would happen. But that has a knock on effect for the next point, the EU.
Salmond has already said Scotland would just stay in the EU like it is an automatic thing, but it’s far from automatic. For a start they’d have to wait for an official window for entry, just like every other Eastern European country who have entered over the past decade. Then every EU member has a right to veto their membership and many have very good reason to do so. Countries like Spain who already have smaller countries within their borders who also want independence can’t be seen to be backing break away countries elsewhere in Europe and maintain their stance at home. Also, this would be a country who’s first action would have been to default on a national debt! Why would any country in the EU trust them after all the bail outs during the recession?
In terms of a future economy there is so much propaganda and counter propaganda surrounding the oil fields that it strikes me as way too dangerous to base an economy on them and in terms of other business there already appears to be panic at the idea that independence might actually happen. Sterling took a hit yesterday and various CEOs have questioned staying in Scotland.
Also, I see the Scots moaning about their lot at the moment, but the current devolved powers (and if the No vote wins the further devolved powers) actually have given a great deal of autonomy with the safety net of being a part of the UK. So why remove that safety net? After all Salmond wants to keep Sterling so it’s almost a glorified devolution anyway.
(A side note on this subject: the MPs up there are already using those powers to sell off parts of the Scottish NHS to foreign investors at a rate that would even make the 'Etonian scum' down here embarrased - so much for the political utopia).
That’s all from the Scottish side of the potential split, but from the other side there would be a political unbalancing below the border that could take a generation to sort itself out. Who knows what that would do to the state of the UK. I would hate to be a in a country where someone like UKIP got a real foothold because of a change in the make up of Parliament. Or even if the country just became a Tory stronghold for the next decade. Urrgh the very thought.
Ah, fuck it. It’s not like I’ve got a vote. But hear this my Scotch friends, Andy Murray was British when he won Wimbeldon and that victory stays with us.
- agreed. i wouldn't trust salmond eitherlowimpakt
- The Spain EU vote point gets overlooked and its so obvious they will say no.sem
- Good pointsbabaganush
- babaganush0
What a twat
- < This reactionary fool is leading your charge for independence...god help us allbabaganush
- How anyone can take him serious is actually worrying.sem
- babaganush0
Oh well. Let's see the day for what it is - an exciting time. Regardless of the outcome we all just need to get on with it and make the best of it...one thing unites many...the shower that are running the show currently aren't pleasing many.