Is this speculative?
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- Machuse
I just got an email with someone looking for samples of a design, to come along with a quote(presumably as a weeding out process). I remember a very interesting brdcst dealing with speculative work; that really opened my eyes to the problem.
Q: Would creating a few sample pages in a pdf be considered speculative, and if yes, how best to still satisfy the clients desires of seeing potential before they pull the trigger.
Is their some type of clause you could add to the bottom of some work, saying any reproduction of whats contained withing this blah blah blah. I know it would be tough in court but I don't think this client is asking for this with malicious intent, they probably just don't understand the speculative work problem.
- madirish0
Respond to the email, if interested, but with no work and a clear definition to do no work.
Yes, that would be spec work.
- Machuse0
Yea, as I was posting the thing i thought. This would be the 'definition' of speculative work if their ever was one.
How have other clients responded to you saying you wont produce samples? Do they respect it or just throw you to the wayside?
- kelpie0
see when you guys talk about spec work like its a horrific bogey man you are too principled to go near, are you talking about pitching for jobs? because I have no earthly idea whatsoever how you get any work at all if you don't do this, in my experience it is utterly standard.
- shame kelpers- it is not needed one bit.madirish
- additionally, there is plenty of room for this to be acceptable... when there is a review group in place, and flat fees paid for the effort.madirish
- are you american? I think it must be different there, it is genuinely 60% of the game over herekelpie
- client has budget, calls X agencies, X agencies respond to 'brief', client chooses preferred agency, work is embarked uponkelpie
- quel problème?kelpie
- I think it all depends on the Risk/Reward if's a huge account it may be worth it. If it's an ID for a store down the street probably notvoiceof
- It's probably not worth itvoiceof
- madirish0
A person's professional feelings on any topic are always respected. If they are not, the recipient of those feelings are either: a)unrealistic to begin with, or b)holding a position of entitlement to which the time spent with them professionally is not needed.
If you come to the table with emotion, the situation cannot be rightly determined. If you come to the table with clearly formulated definitions, both parties can achieve everything they want.
- brandelec0
I show them old work that somehow relates to what they're looking for. If I don't have any, I propose in words what can be done. If they insist on spec work, i say peace and hi to their mother for me
- ian0
Aye kelpie its standard but not a good way of working. I always think of it like, you wouldn't start building a house by getting 4 builders to each quote and build a wall and pick which wall you like best and go from there.
Just ask if theres an initial design presentation fee, we get jobs like ths a lot and sometimes theres a minimal fee for the initial designs sometimes not. I keep telling my boss that theres no point going for the unpaid pitches unless its a job we would really like to do, otherwise theres a high likelihood of it being a considerable amount of work for free.
- madirish0
kelpie- because the work that is not selected, gets stolen all the time and implemented by the client because they feel they are entitled to have it, since it was "made for them". i cannot tell you how many times this has happened to me, and to others i know. it is a horrible practice to continue. ian's analogy is a very fair one, and something the construction trade would have nothing to do with. why? because it is fucking rediculous. yet, the same exact practice is widely 'assumed' to be perfectly acceptable and literally demanded within the design field as it pertains to creative, artwork and graphics across any medium. Seems like a pretty self-depreciating model to maintain the focus of, eh?
I have won many projects as well, the last few included. I have had the alternative happen as well. My personal favorite from this year was the one where the AD I assembled for the final presentation to the reviewing agency was stolen and implemented as the AD for the brand design, ad campaign, and branding. Do you like loosing a +$200k contract only to see the very artifacts *you* created, be used as the heart of the actualized campaign? I thought not.
- so you're freelancing, pitching to design agencies? not agency, pitching to clients? have I got that right?kelpie
- cos I don't have that experience - I've lost many many jobs I've poured my soul into but usually cos the opposition was just more on the money, or the money was literallykelpie
- ...on the mark, or the costing was fucked up. I've seen stuff which later showed a little comparison, but nothing concrete. commiserations on that story, sounds a killer mate.kelpie
- ...commiserations on that story, sounds a killer mate :(kelpie
- nope- i assemble teams as account holder; aka: i am 'the agency' to the end client.madirish
- most often, this process is done through a reviewing agency, hence why i will do it.madirish
- kelpie0
what pisses *me* off abouthte process is more when you have the feeling that a client already has someone in mind but has put it out to tender (cos its a requirement of theirs) anyway, and has no intention of awarding it elsewhere, but who can prove that.
I take on board what you guys are saying by the way and can understand the principle - have to say though, I've not been stung so badly as madirish and I guess as it has always been a feature of my working life since the beginning its just something I've accepted as a part of it. I don't think the builder analogy stands up to much close scrutiny either, they're unrelated separate industries and sectors, though I get the basic point.
- johndiggity0
not sure how you can do good work without a proper brief and an established relationship with a client.
- define 'good work'. in my experience its often the guys who have the brightest idea or the clearest innate affinity with the clients brand who get the jobkelpie
- ...the brand who get the work. I see no problem with a client wanting to know who of the potential agencies will be best for them in this regardkelpie
- ...them in this regard.kelpie
- ETM0
- somatica0
We just fell prey to this last week.
We burned probably 80 hours doing spec work for a client after they asked for some samples of what we'd improve on their website. I distinctively remember telling the Project Managers that we should only provide written examples of what we'd like to improve on their site because they could just take our ideas and designs and go to the lowest bidder, well, they didn't listen. So we burned all this time (80 hours x $160 per hour for each Art Director = $12,800 of our own time and money) only to have the client near literally say "thanks, these designs and ideas are great but we've decided to go in a different direction" which we all here took to mean "thanks for the free work, we have someone in India who will implement it."
We. Got. F*cked.
- Its a bastard when you know its going to go bad and you still have to work on it.ian
- ETM0
I haven't done spec work since I first started out. Since I decided to stop, it has not been an issue. A client should evaluate you on your body of work. If there is an interest, they should submit an RFP. In kind, you put in the work to respond to it, but no actual creative should be done at this stage.
When spec work in done, it removes responsibility from clients when they choose studios/designers. Rather than research the design portfolio, experience and capabilities, they just send out requests to numerous design agencies, knowing little about most of them and hope that one will be right when the specs come in. Its unreasonable.