Politics
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- DrBombay0
The previous administration tried to orchestrate a coup in his country that failed. He's got a right to be hostile with the US in my estimation.
- that's not proven. what's in question is whether we had prior knowledge of it.zenmasterfoo
- that sort of thing never gets proven, how many central and SA countries has this happened in b4?DrBombay
- agreed. and if our involvement is true it was wrong. I'm not keen on nation building.zenmasterfoo
- tommyo0
Zen
Don't go! I was just thinking, it's real nice that there is a better mix of opinion in here than a few months ago. Stick around, mix it up. Have a drink. Kick your feet up and relax on our blood stained couches. :)
- Thanks tommyo. I like different opinions. I don't want anyone to think I'm pigheaded. or close minded.zenmasterfoo
- RickBombay and I are pigheaded, you're fine as long as you don't challenge us for our titles. Then we'll jack you thetommyo
- fuck up!! Rawwwwwrrrrrrrrr!!!tommyo
- ********0
Zen is correct in his viewpoint. The rest of you lefties just keep pointing your fingers backwards— now, up to 40 years backwards? Fuck me.
Why can't you all just operate in the "here and now"???
ANY OF YOU who think that Obama behaved appropriately during his recent "WORLD TOUR", let alone, how he behaved while visiting HUGO... well, neither my sentiments towards the situation, nor my choice words, will ever sway you. So, be it.
However, and unfortunately for you, and I, and the rest of us in this great country, Obama's first 100 days as President are doing us greater harm, than good. Face the reality people.
- So, do you tell you're children that it's OK to get an "F" in history?TheBlueOne
- ..Oh, don't you have something better to do than contribute to this thread, like volunteer or something?TheBlueOne
- dont you have some tea bagging that needs to be done?DrBombay
- Actually, YES, I do have some volunteer work to perform today, fuck you very much. :-)********
- medical experiments?DrBombay
- ukit0
Hmmm well the U.S. had no problem dealing with Putin, who routinely has journalists and dissenters gunned down in the streets or poisoned with radioactive material.
No problem with Chinese government, whose response to people who protest the government is to run over them with tanks.
Or Saudi government, which has no freedom of speech and beheads and actually amputates the hands and feet of people accused of petty crimes.
We were best buds with Pervez Musharraf, who became dictator of Pakistan in a military coup.
Or you could go back to Augusto Pinochet, who the U.S. gov actually helped launch a military coup in Chile, and went on to run death squads and torture or imprison more than 100k people.
Anyway, the point is not that Chavez is a great guy, I'm sure he's not. But some people sure are selective in terms of what you get outraged about. Just wait for the next update from the media about who the bad guy is I guess.
- Be careful, or the guy that went to the 18th century political protest re-enactment will tell you to "operate in the here and now"TheBlueOne
- now...TheBlueOne
- Chavez is an asshat and an attention whore though....TheBlueOne
- lowimpakt0
"However, and unfortunately for you, and I, and the rest of us in this great country, Obama's first 100 days as President are doing us greater harm, than good. Face the reality people."
what harm?
how should he have behaved?
- He should of done everything John McCain or Ron Paul would've done. You know, the guys that were rejected by the American electorate.TheBlueOne
- American electorate.TheBlueOne
- snarky!zenmasterfoo
- I believe he was asking me the question, TBO, but once again, you have answered on my behalf.********
- zenmasterfoo0
Chavez is an asshat, I'll agree 100% TBO, but a dangerous one with a great deal of power now and a lot of capital. Ukit, no argument from me about the associations we have now and before with the countries and leaders you've mentioned above.
I guess where I'm going with it is that if we all agree courting these dictators is par for the course, did Obama take it a step beyond how we would hope our president would interact with leadership as the ones listed above. Is it fair to argue against Obama's decisions since he's new and has multiple reference points from previous administrations that allow him to do the same. I think it is. There is a point where you tell your leadership, even if you adore them or despise them that business as usual isn't going to cut it. You also point out fairly, that addressing leaders to push forward an agenda of peace can sometimes achieve the opposite effect.
I believe that's a part of why we are such a great country. Our leadership supports and protects a constitution that gives us all the absolute right to tell them what we think, without getting put in jail or shot.
- IRNlun60
In my opinion, smiling and shaking hands with Chavez disarms his virulent rhetoric. By rejecting his hand shake, or by projecting a stoic non-emotional reaction to their meeting would have fed into Chavez message as America being the big bad arrogant bully. Chavez is popular and is supported by many in Latin America whether right or wrong.
President Obama's reaction to this meeting marginalizes Chavez and makes him appear to be someone who is out of touch with current events. This is more important to US/Latin American relations that it is US/Venezuela relations.
- disagree. I think it would send a very stern message that only the adults stay up past 10. Time for bed Hugo...zenmasterfoo
- DrBombay0
“Venezuela is a country whose defense budget is probably 1/600th of the United States’. They own Citgo. It’s unlikely that as a consequence of me shaking hands or having a polite conversation with Mr. Chavez that we are endangering the strategic interests of the United States. I don’t think anybody can find any evidence that that would do so. Even within this imaginative crowd, I think you would be hard-pressed to paint a scenario in which U.S. interests would be damaged as a consequence of us having a more constructive relationship with Venezuela.”
- Obama addressing his critics who have accused him of showing weakness
- DrBombay0
Critics like Newt Gingrich...
“Frankly, this does look a lot like Jimmy Carter. Carter tried weakness, and the world got tougher and tougher, because the predators, the aggressors, the anti-Americans, the dictators – when they sense weakness, they all start pushing ahead,” Gingrich said on “Fox & Friends.”
Critics like Congressional Republicans...
Two Republican senators, Judd Gregg of New Hampshire and John Ensign of Nevada, joined in the criticism Monday, with Ensign calling Obama’s greeting of Chavez “irresponsible.”
Critics like Dick Cheney...
Former Vice President Dick Cheney told Fox News Channel’s Sean Hannity that President Obama’s handshake with Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez “was not helpful” and could lead “foes” of the U.S. to “think they’re dealing with a weak president.”
- what's with the defensive personalities, paranoia, and self-esteem issues among republicans?7point34
- It can be argued that North Korea, Iran and Venezuela are more powerful because of the previous administrations alienation and condemnation.IRNlun6
- ...alienation and condemnation.IRNlun6
- yupDrBombay
- You guys act like the D's wouldn't be saying the same shit ... see the forest, see the trees? Two sides of the same coin.tommyo
- It's actions tommy, not rhetoricDrBombay
- Tommyo it's more a diplomatic strategy opinion than a Dem vs Repub. Regan was masterful in diplomatic relations.IRNlun6
- DrBombay0
- TBO LOOK, there is your coat!!!tommyo
- fucking love that coat.TheBlueOne
- TheBlueOne0
A big part of Chavez's rhetoric at home and abroad is to act as a counter weight to the "big, bad imperial US of A". Anytime you disarm an opponent's weapons, or limit their arguments, I think Sun Tzu would posit the advantage is yours.
Really, the story here for the rest of the world is not so much that Obama shook Chavez's hand, but rather Chavez shook Obama's hand.
- Tend to agree. Even if TBO is a dog raping homosexual liberal, I agree.tommyo
- Hey! It was consensual!TheBlueOne
- Just because you marinated your anus in peanut butter for 2 weeks doesn't make it consensual.tommyo
- DrBombay0
Absolutely, If Obama met with Kim Jong Il, it would show the world just what a napoleanic creep he was and would strip tons of power from him. Think about it.
- Disagree in this case. Chavez yes, Jong no. Jong is just straight nuts, if Obama was cordial with Jong ... bad move.tommyo
- He honestly would look like a complete pansy if he were friendly with Jong.tommyo
- In your eyes, in Asia's eyes it would be the opposite.DrBombay
- I agree with Tommy here. We would need alot more formal diplomatic back and forth first...TheBlueOne
- You think for 2 seconds that S Korea or Japan would smile with glee if Obama got chummed up with Jong? :-/tommyo
- You said chummed along... not me.DrBombay
- Oh, sorry if my adjective wasn't what you were thinking. How bout instead of 'chummed,' we use 'smile and shake hands.'tommyo
- OK, maybe a bit much for DPRK, how about Iran?DrBombay
- Iran's a different issue bc it is a functional democracy...TheBlueOne
- ..at least within reason..TheBlueOne
- The Mullahs are elected, TBO?DrBombay
- zenmasterfoo0
I certainly hope you guys are right. There's no arguing how smartly you've positioned your arguments. It's always better to hear something well thought out than the tiresome "what harm can it do? chill out man. give the guy a break."
Just a bit of background, the King of Spain (no comments about despots and royalty please) growing tired of Chavez's rants during the 2007 summit of leaders from latin america, told the little punk to "shut up". Classic.
- lowimpakt0
did anyone watch this?
"The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (a.k.a. Chavez: Inside the Coup) is a 2002 documentary about the April 2002 Venezuelan coup attempt which briefly deposed Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez. A television crew from Ireland's national broadcaster, RTÉ happened to be recording a documentary about Chávez during the events of April 11, 2002. Shifting focus, they followed the events as they occurred. During their filming, the crew recorded images of the events that they say contradict explanations given by Chávez's opposition, the private media, the US State Department, and then White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer. The documentary says that the coup was the result of a conspiracy between various old guard and anti-Chávez factions within Venezuela and the United States."
- PonyBoy0
*stains couch
- http://www.thriftyfu…
unless you used something else to stain it with..NEWSFLASH
- http://www.thriftyfu…
- Mirpour0
funny how you all have to prove a handshake being something good or something not at all..........
to GETREFRESH and his racist nigger family :)
........wait whatt??
- ukit0
Obama responds to whether Bush officials should be held responsible for criminal actions in torturing prisoners.
While I had previously thought he would not do anything, it is interesting that he says the decision will be left to Eric Holder, the Attorney General.
Previously, he had said he was interested in moving forward, but that would have been a political judgement rather than a legal one. By saying it's in the hands of the Justice Dept, doesn't that make an investigation more likely?
- There isn't a snowballs chance in hell that will happen.tommyo
- ukit0
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/20…
A report released Tuesday by the Senate Armed Services Committee presented new details regarding Bush administration officials' approval of the military's use of harsh interrogation techniques on terrorism suspects.
[The report] sheds new light on the adaptation of techniques from a U.S. military program known as Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE), used to train American service personnel to resist interrogations if captured by an enemy that does not honor the Geneva Conventions' ban on torture.
The military's Joint Personnel Recovery Agency (JPRA) has been reported to have reverse-engineered these methods to break al-Qaeda prisoners. The techniques, including waterboarding, or simulated drowning, were drawn from the methods used by Chinese Communists to coerce confessions from U.S. soldiers during the Korean War -- a lineage that one instructor appeared to readily acknowledge.
"We can provide the ability to exploit personnel based on how our enemies have done this type of thing over the last five decades," Joseph Witsch wrote in a July 2002 memo.
Establishing a link between al Qaida and Iraq was one of the factors motivating the use of these interrogation methods. :
A former U.S. Army psychiatrist, Maj. Charles Burney, told Army investigators in 2006 that interrogators at the Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, detention facility were under "pressure" to produce evidence of ties between al Qaida and Iraq.
"While we were there a large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between al Qaida and Iraq and we were not successful in establishing a link between al Qaida and Iraq," Burney told staff of the Army Inspector General. "The more frustrated people got in not being able to establish that link . . . there was more and more pressure to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results."