Politics
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- TheBlueOne0
A) The government already plays favorites with the market. Always has, always will. To expect some sort of Platonic "perfect circle" with respect to government/market interaction like libertarians seem to strikes me as incredibly naive and favors the map over the territory and opens you up to simplistic zero sum thinking and inaction.
b) Bak nationalizations - where defaulted banks remaining assets are seized by the government, assessed for value and resold to the market and the bank corporation is either resold to the private market or liquidated is a normal feature of modern market capitalism. The system wouldn't work otherwise. What do you think the FDIC does with smaller banks? It is the very same mechanism with personal bankruptcies to a large extent, which is a feature and not a bug of the American political economy since day one.
The process of nationalizing a bank because it is insolvent is not socialism. Not.
- designbot0
You know irony in all this is nobody knows if this bailout willl even work. There is no evidence to suggest it will work, experts like Warren Buffet don't even know, and the president himself is merely leaning on the expertise of those around him. Not to mention the fact that there are many top economists who think it's a horrible idea...yet somehow Obama makes it seem like it was some unanimous agreement among these experts ( I recall this in one of his pre-stimulus speeches). It is pure speculation. Honestly I think Obama combined with the media are creating an unrealistic fear in people that if we don't do something our economy will collapse overnight. It seems to me he is using the same fear tactics the Bush administration used to push the "War on Terror". Why did he feel the need to push this thing through congress so fast? The details of the bailout were not posted for congress to view until the night before it's passing. Completely irresponsible. The disturbing part is there are plenty of pet projects attached to this plan...in fact much of what I have read in the plan I don't think is going to help the economy at all. We are not dealing with Monopoly money here, this trillion+ dollars being spent will haunt us and our kids ( and maybe out kids kids) for a very long time. I can only speculate that inflation will go through the roof in a few years...and ultimately things will be much worse. I don't think anyone has the "silver bullet" solution here, but thinking that without this bailout our entire economy would simply collapse is ludicrous. Tell me how exactly we think we can spend our way out of debt? Even if this thing generates millions of jobs, and stimulates the economy like Obama is claiming, it can only end badly, The American people are still going to be left with a heaping mound of debt that frankly I don't think will ever be paid back. Though we will all be permantly effected.
- you are already in a BIG heap of debt fucking psycho.. besides why wouldnt $53 B in education help your country??Mirpour
- "fucking psycho" hahahadesignbot
- You are confusing bailout/ stimulus planukit
- I use those terms synonymously....I realize though that they are 2 separate issues.designbot
- haha ok :)Mirpour
- TheBlueOne0
"nobody knows if this bailout willl even work."
Yes. Welcome to real life. Their are no guarantees. If shits broken we have to try and fix it and hope for the best. I don't hear a better solution from the right there than "leave it alone and you know, maybe shit will get better."
If you want guarantees, Buy a fucking toaster.
Sounds like typical victim thinking to me.
Funny I was just listening to some historical speeches, one from the Republican party in 1932 one guy is criticizing FDR saying "He will bury u sin generational debt!" Same tired shit, same rejection of the facts on the ground, from the same tired expected rich-guy-but-I'm-pulling-for-the... source. Wrong seventy years ago, wrong now.
As to the president and media using fear? I think you have that mixed up with the recently defunct Bush administration. Last I checked I haven't seen a terrorist around NY in about eight years. Five of my buddies are now out of work. One is irrational fear, the other is simply a fact. You tell me which was unnessecary fear-mongering for political gain?
"Tell me how exactly we think we can spend our way out of debt?"
It's been done before, we will do it again. Take your "government stimulus never works" back to the CATO institute rightwing lie generating cave. Thank you.
Of course, Obama is completely fucking up with the TARP II deal. Let the banks fucking burn. No more socialism for the rich.
- lowimpakt0
"If you want guarantees, Buy a fucking toaster"
ha ha..
- ukit0
What I would like to hear from the designbot/ tommyos of the world is - how do we get out of this mess with the financial system. Believe or not it is not going to go away if the government does nothing.
- TheBlueOne0
List on who is for/against bank nationalization. Interesting:
- designbot0
"It's been done before, we will do it again" - TBD in regards to spending our way out of debt.
There is much debate on whether the New Deal actually worked to get us out of the depression....most economists agree that what really got the country moving was the military buildup of World War II. But lets not get side tracked.
"Take your "government stimulus never works" back to the CATO institute rightwing lie generating cave"
You really have to get off this labeling everything "rightwing" or "conservative" first off I'm not a conservative or "rightwing" and who really cares what side of the political fence anyone in here stands.....I care about my country and what happens, I don't have any faithfulness to either side.
- ukit0
What was the military buildup but government spending on a huge scale?
- tommyo0
"Yes. Welcome to real life. Their are no guarantees. If shits broken we have to try and fix it and hope for the best. I don't hear a better solution from the right there than "leave it alone and you know, maybe shit will get better.""
How do you know that's not the answer? Every time these boneheads make an announcement the market fucking drops 300 points. 'Hey we've got this great plan that we're going to form a committee on and ...' the dow drops 100 'then we're going to do X' plummets another 125 points. Every time these taints talk they fuck up the economy and overall confidence a little more, what makes you think them actually doing something is going to fix anything? Pure optimism? Seems to me that there are plenty of economists who all agree on one thing, and that is that neither of them believes the other one is right. No one even still has an idea about what exactly needs to be stimulated. Do the banks need more capital liquidity or do people need more money in their pockets? Chicken or the egg?
The part I have a real big problem with is twice now Congress has rushed this crap through when no one voting on it had a chance to even read it. I still can not believe people aren't storming the gates on this fact alone. Bailout 08 I believe was issued 2 days before and none of the people voting on it claimed to have read it .. then there is this Stimulus package that was published the night before? This doesn't scare you? We're toying with the total devaluation of our monetary system here and they can't wait 4 days to let people digest it before casting a vote? Isn't the whole idea of government so that individuals representing large groups of individuals get to meet, discuss and make educated choices that effect all of us? Would you do it this way .. maybe you're filling out paperwork for a mortgage and you have no clue what your interest rate is or what your monthly payments are and for how many years you're going to need to pay it ... let's say you haven't got a fucking clue what the ballpark value is on any of those variables. You could be paying 10k a month or 1k, no clue. Do you sign it? Or try to do a little research so that you know what the hell you're signing up for. It's simply the responsible thing to do.
- Completely agree, the rush to pass these plans is completely ludicrous and irresponsible.designbot
- You're confusing bailout and stimulus. Again.TheBlueOne
- Again? And no I'm not. Be more specific where you think I am.tommyo
- TheBlueOne0
On a side note, this is worth a listen:
http://www.electricpolitics.com/…
- tommyo0
Am I a policy maker or economist you dimwit? I'm a designer and you might do well by remembering that too you inflammatory nutbag.
- ukit0
You just wrote three paragraphs about policy and economics
- DrBombay0
So no alternative then? I guess you pretty much admitted it. Cancer is spreading? Ahh fuck it, it'll go away.
- tommyo0
Gripes and opinions. Not me creating policy. Here let me give you an example you might understand...
Me talking about how bad the Raiders suck.
Me trying to cover a Raider wide receiver.See the difference?
- designbot0
Sorry, I am too busy designing to come up with an economic plan to save the country right now......brb.
- lol exactly. Choice A: Spend time doing your job. Choice B: Blame the rich you sit on a msg board playing President.tommyo
- hahadesignbot
- You're too busy...but both of you have time to write entire article length posts about why Obama is wrong:)ukit
- I love how you see it as I'm saying Obama is wrong. Obama didn't write the bill. 'Go Team!' politics are amazing.tommyo
- you still have time to write rants is the point. you fuggers are irrational.DrBombay
- TheBlueOne0
A Cartoon Allegory, Wherein Calvin Represents John Q. Public, and Hobbes The Financial Industry:
- BattleAxe0
Bottom up,
cut mortgages interest rates by 1 or 2 points you instantly give home owners more money to save = more money in banks to lend
or they spend it , a little here a little there = stimulate
plain and simply cut interest rates on all debt , how can that not help everyone ? car loans , credit cards, student loans, business loans you shave some points , people walk away with anything from $ 50 - $200+ more money a month in there pockets , or shock it stays in the bank ,
the rate the Fed gives to banks if low already ,
why is that such a horrible idea , enlighten me
- TheBlueOne0
"Am I a policy maker or economist you dimwit? I'm a designer and you might do well by remembering that too you inflammatory nutbag. "
No, you're an American citizen. Last I checked we're allowed an opinion. So, I guess this is you're guys message:
a) Bitch about the experts fucking up the policy. Imply they don't know what they're doing and that they're "pulling a fast one".
b) When asked what should be done say "Fuck, I'm not an expert"
c) Wash, Rinse, RepeatWow deep thoughts.
- It's the Joe The Plumber Method.TheBlueOne
- Oh please, get a grip.tommyo
- Be the adult that I am not. Set an example.tommyo
- that is exactly what you are doing, everyone else is wrong, but you don't know what is right.DrBombay
- like Archie BunkerDrBombay
- tommyo0
TBO,
It's a tad different offering an opinion, which I do. And telling me that I need to write a plan on a message board that would fix the economy. It's really silly to ask for the kind of broad scope answer that would require. Besides that, we all know that we have wildly differentiating views on this .. so by even attempting to sit here for 45 minutes writing out my thoughts, it would likely cause an onslaught of negative reply, which I would feel obligated to answer. Quite simply, I don't feel like putting forth the commitment in time it would take to actually play this game. And we should really all take a little stock in the fact, and I'm not trying to belittle anyone because obviously I'm here and involved as well, that we are graphic designers and not political analysts. We could spend 20 lifetimes here debating and never causing anyone feel enlightened by our difference in opinion. It really is a waste of time when you have other things to do, although completely addicting and interesting, still, it's a waste of time. Again, I'm not belittling anyone's participation here. There are many positives that come of this style of debate and exchange of ideas, so I'm not saying that this isn't important, it's just that by 'offering an alternative' requires hours of time spent which I really don't want to get into. What I can accomplish today by not replying has much more of an effect on my life than the enjoyment I'd get 'offering an alternative.' Cheers.
- ...and you call yourself an Irishman!? Where's the love of a good dustup my man?TheBlueOne
- ;)TheBlueOne