Bhutto killed
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- mrdobolina0
- What's all this here, then?AndyRoss
- yeah what's the line?molo
- Look at file name: "pipelines"...OBBTKN
- so...and?JKristofer
- that is the reason for the US being brought up in this conversation.mrdobolina
- pipelines are over-ratedribit
- zedvox0
India is not massing any troops....well yet.
this bullshit almost makes me love global warming.
- TheBlueOne0
NY Times Photo Essay of the Assassination:
- TheBlueOne0
Also interesting news, from the day before her assassination:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/e…
"US to Put Troops On Ground In Pakistan"
- pr20
well with quotes like that she was probably hated by pretty much every other Pakistani
- teleos0
mikotondria: Your "bloke in the sky" as you have described him, may well be what those of militant islamic sects hold to.
I would of course disagree that such a description is true for all people who believe in a supreme intelligence.
Also, be careful to not co-opt moral standards of "right" and "wrong" when they only have any intrinsic worth within the context of a worldview you would deny.
- blah dee blahmrdobolina
- Translation: "duhhh, I don't get them big wurds, *hick!"teleos
- nah, I just don't respect your superstitions.mrdobolina
- "blah dee blah" - keep in mind teleos, this guy is 34 years old.k0na_an0k
- 35.mrdobolina
- lol ... off by 1Ramanisky2
- hey flagellum, jesus doesnt like it when you judge people.mrdobolina
- haha. last week when you said the same thing to me for something 'childish' i didn't think it necessary to point out you were 2 years off.k0na_an0k
- were 2 years off.k0na_an0k
- have a good weekend, countryboy.mrdobolina
- you too city slicker.k0na_an0k
- well playedmrdobolina
- mrdobolina thinks an inference to a supreme intelligence = superstition. My there are lots n' lots of superstitious people in the world. Lots of smart ones too.
teleos - certainly areribit
- detritus0
Maybe it's just post-christmas cheer, but I find myself back in my misanthropic megacidal mood again.
We're a shit species and most of us only deserve to die.
- botbot0
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n24/ali…
An article summarizing her political life, including the corruption charges, her brother's murder, her husband's influence, and where Musharraf and everybody else stands. Note this was written many days before this fatal attack on her. It will definitely make a lot of things clear to the QBN audience about the Pakistani politics. Written by one of the greatest political commentators of our time, Tariq Ali.
- Ramanisky20
what if us Americans are the zombie/vampires of I Am Legend and extremist Muslims are Will Smith .... hmmmm .... food for thought
- k0na_an0k0
ram, if that were the case then will smith would have been running around on screen for 190 minutes killing the non zombie/vampires like himself to prove a point to the zombie/vampires. :)
- mikotondria20
"Also, be careful to not co-opt moral standards of "right" and "wrong" when they only have any intrinsic worth within the context of a worldview you would deny."
Copting moral standards ?
Where the hell do you get off claiming that just because you believe in one particular superstition that I do not, that this entitles you to 'own' morality ?
I am perfectly capable of examining the questions of morality and drawing my conclusions about what is right and wrong, drawn broadly along the principals of not doing something to someone that I would like to have done to me, without fooling myself and others that I believe in an unseen unprovable unevidential 'force', thank you very much.
If you're only ability to discern how you and other people should behave towards each other is the alleged 'divine' source of some perfectly and utterly 'common' sense guidelines drawn up by nomadic palestians, then Im afraid, sir, you are entirely lost in an increasingly complex world populated by a growing number of people who actually have the balls to take the responsibility for examining themselves and their behavior for themselves, and who do not submit their powers of reason and responsibility to someone else...
If the Israelites and the thousands of generations of their forebears had not done this, and worked out how we should all behave, there wouldnt have been anyone on the mount to received this so-called divine revelation of the commandments...
"Oh, it says thou shalt not kill - hadnt thought of that one, good, good - and adultery is bad you say ? Well, I guess it is, yes...stealing too ? It all makes sense now - ok - everyone who hasnt been killed, please return all the stuff you have stolen, and try to stay faithful, please - oh how much better life will be with these previously unfathomable concepts....".
- teleos0
"right" and "wrong" only have any meaning if there is an absolute standard with which to juxtapose them. Otherwise, what is right for you may not be right for me (and who is to judge?). Superstition has nothing to do with this; it is a matter of logic. The point of the argument is that right and wrong must have immaterial value and not reducable to social conventions, etc... The only other option is that they are the product of the human mind and therefore die when the human mind is gone from this earth. ie. prior to the human mind, there was no such thing as right or wrong, as this is what a materialistic framework necessitates. And therefore, such concepts are illusory and useless.
- ...and therefore something beyond blind material causes must be the originator of what we recognize as right and wrong.teleos
- yeah that thing is called societal norms. in times of war people kill, are they all heallbound?mrdobolina
- there is no absolute standardribit
- Good job, ribit. Do you mind then if we go out and rob the elderly together? I mean, it's acceptable by MY standard of right and wrong. It's a stress reliever.teleos
- mikotondria20
"absolute standard" ? What does this even mean here ?
Do you mean some kind of meta-rule by which the other rules are formed ?
And yes, it is utterly superstition to believe that the rules described as the 10 commandments (there were many others that were discarded), were dictated from a supernatural source. Its almost the definition of superstition..
"The only other option is that they are the product of the human mind and therefore die when the human mind is gone from this earth."
Yes of course they are the product of the human mind, they are abstract concepts, but being such cannot 'die' for they are not material.
But even there you confoud the issue...'gone from this earth '? Do you mean in space, on the moon, how far away from the earth do you mean ?
The meta rule for morality, I will postulate, (and it will probably sound familiar to you), is:
"Dont do something to someone else, that you wouldnt want them to do to you"...
I think that fits your idea of "what is right for you may not be right for me (and who is to judge?)".
And for that matter, we are all to judge, for we are all responsible for each other, whether we like it or not.- If such a meta rule is the product of molecules in motion, then in principle it doesn't matter what we do. Do as you please. No one may judge you.teleos
- No one is responsible to anyone else. Unless there is a universal absolute standard, I can do anything I want. In principle. This is not a difficult concept.teleos
- PonyBoy0
Inconceivable!
- mikotondria20
To bring it slightly back to topic, the people that killed Bhutto and themselves did so because they believed they were entitled to do so because their god said it was ok, and they believed this to be the case because someone ELSE told them that was true.
You can examine that sentence and see that their reasoning is uttely false, yet you lack the ability to turn that logic upon yourself and your own ideas on the origin or basis of morality, for to do so would reveal that such a position bears a great deal more in common with murdering fundamentalists than with the rest of the world that have to put up with them, and you, and that whereas they will murder in these cirucmstances based on their idiotic superstition, you would require a different set of circumstances to carry out acts which contraviened 'mere mortal' morality, it is simply a question of degree: you would harm someone based on nothing other than an unprovable, abstract belief in divinity, and divine purpose , or you would not, and I will fight you every inch to make sure you and the billions of other innocent people affected by this idiocy don't get near me or my family.
The sooner you all get taken up, the sooner the rest of us can get on with whatever other non-cloud-floating activities we please.- You seem to have a problem with compartmentalizing people into neat little groups that you can understand/label. Evidently, anyone who has faith in a higher being is a "murdering fundamentalist". Sounds like you might be an Atheist fundie.
It is superstitious to believe that matter produced matter and information out of nothing. Whereas an inference to a designing intelligence is logical and warranted, based on the empirical evidence. We've been over this before, don't you know.teleos - Remember, right/wrong is subjective, so you are contradicting yourself by expressing righteous indignation in defense of "innocent people".teleos
- You seem to have a problem with compartmentalizing people into neat little groups that you can understand/label. Evidently, anyone who has faith in a higher being is a "murdering fundamentalist". Sounds like you might be an Atheist fundie.
- mrdobolina0
everyone who is not christian is immoral, don't you get it?
- did you check hickabee's act on meet the press? particularly his spin on sin, homosexuality and abortion?
fuck that closed-minded aholeBonSeff - what is terrible is the politicization of abortion. It's not exclusively a conservative/xian standpoint that it is wrong.mikotondria2
- You are terribly thick, mrdobolina. The point you insist on missing is that there really is no such thing as morality/immorality if they are illusory products of animal brains.teleos
- everytime you insult me, baby jesus criesmrdobolina
- did you check hickabee's act on meet the press? particularly his spin on sin, homosexuality and abortion?
- mikotondria20
Yeh, I love the way that the church battered beat and burned free-thinking women and called them witches for hundreds of years, that was a class act, and exactly the same thinking as the murdering fundies that have us in their cross-hairs (pun intended) right now.
Fuck them lot of them, I've really really really had enough of all of them.
Apart that is, from maybe the people from the Salvation Army who stand outside in the rain for hours collecting money to help people that life has shit on, those people I applaud and give money and props to, whether they believe in the bloke in the sky or not, but particularly if they say they are doing it because they believe it, but don't really.
We had some mormons knock the door recently, and if they asked me if I was aware of the church of jesus blah de blah, I gladly and proudly said 'no - Im an atheist', enjoying the look on their faces that was akin to someone who has seen the devil himself, and they pointed to the father christmas hung up in our window and said 'but you're happy to celebrate santa claus coming, I see ?' (the snarky little clones)..
'Yes, but we both know that he really IS a fictional person, don't we ?' I replied.
To which they responded by giving me a little card with a renaissance style depiction of a caucasian man with a black beard and a funny greenish costume.
When I stared at it then looked away at a white wall - ho hoho ! It was Santa Himself. A true-a a-miracle-a at-a a-Christmass time-a.- jesus was the first honky to spread freedom in the middle east - get with the programBonSeff
- The "church" did no such thing. Gross generalizations and slippery slope, seem to be your fallacy of choice.teleos
- It was the "church" that was at the heart of the civil rights movement and abolition of slavery. Inconvenient, I know.teleos
- it's also the church of fred phelps who says god hates fags, so you are back to square onemrdobolina
- lol! The "church" we are speaking of is professing believers worldwide. Not some internet cult, you dolt.teleos
- keep insulting me. it shows how much of an enlightened christian you are.mrdobolina
- geralddean0
son her son is taking the reigns, eh?
he is 19...
- teleos0
This might provide you with some perspective, mikotondria...
- http://en.wikipedia.…BonSeff
- a really interesting thing about that article is religious peeps arent "supposed" to kill anyone...mrdobolina
- while seculars make no such claim.mrdobolina
- lol. Read a book, mrdobolina. My goodness you can't even glean the point of a simple poignant article like that one!?teleos
- BonSeff: Godwin's Law applies to a comparison to Hitler. Not the listing of statistics regarding Hitler's regime. Please put your critical thinking/reading cap on and and then report back to me.teleos