to my dutch friends
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- Witt0
well, in a rush it seemed a rule like any other to me. haven't gone into all it's defects but there's probably a few.
I can change my op though. I'm not a hard-headed person. I like to change, to a point.
- wunderbra0
the netherlands has one of the strongest international trade histories in the world, and essentially this made us a country focused on foreign cultures and languages. For decades we took pride in a good educational system that was perfectly tailored for the objectives of our economy.
Yet, that institution is crumbling, and with it, unfortunately, our tolerance.
- Llyod0
you should speak the language of the soil you live on
- Witt0
so, what is crumbling? Your tolerance or the economic model?
What are the menaces now?
- wunderbra0
what language speaks the soil underneath my feet?
- Witt0
I don't think west europeans are fed up with tolerance. It's just that a set of policies, which are liberal, have been creating many threats that we weren't prepared to.
- Witt0
we, in general. every country has it's sentiment. maybe that is something that could be preserved.
- Llyod0
you are the wind beneath my wings
- Witt0
you are the wind beneath my wings
Llyod
(Nov 6 07, 17:09)nice image, but what do you mean?
- wunderbra0
so, what is crumbling? Your tolerance or the economic model?
What are the menaces now?
Witt
(Nov 6 07, 17:00)both, but even more recently, things seem slightly more positive.
as one of the better Dutch thinkers, Paul Scheffer, said: Conflict (verbal) between natives and ethnic groups (read Muslims) finally makes way for dialogue and ultimately understanding..
he did not say it that literally, yet made the same point. there's been a lot of heated debates recently, and plenty of tension on both social, cultural and political level (but where not these days?).
there's the issue of space, the infinite disaster called traffic jams, rapidly growing population, ever growing demand for housing and neverending rise of real estate value, the fight against the effects of global warming (flood management), and as mentioned ealier, seemingly serious integration problems of mainly Islamic citizens, etc. etc.
Yet, since the debate seem to reach slightly more mature and academic levels lately, issues are pointed out more precisely and a stream of newly initiated dialogues seem to drive frustration and anger out of the cave and into the open for all to be challenged, instead of conserved.
- wunderbra0
in short:
the Netherlands is finally facing some serious challenges instead of the struggle to win the European soccer cup. Time to make history again, I say..
- rafalski0
So, are you kicking out Arabs and Jews Spain 1492 style?
- Witt0
i don't get it, man. most people i know (like you, again) consider Europe to be under some abstract menace of immigrants, islam, federation problems, "losing identity", the Big Brother, unhapiness, loss of want, rising separatism between regions (like we don't have it every 100km in Europe for ages)... I dont' know.
What have we learned from the past?
- wunderbra0
nope. on the contrary.
it would turn us into fundamentalists. we vowed to protect the freedom of religion and speech, however these two can clash on a fundamental level as it does now. yet, do not forget that the netherlands has in line with it's own political and socio-cultural ambitions transformed other religious mainstreams in the past, look at the Nederlands-Hervormden for instance, which translates to the Dutch Reformed, who in fact are the new fundamentals now haha..
And do not forget the Catholics. And how Amsterdam was the ultimate refuge for Jews from all over the world centuries ago; in fact this is what made Amsterdam what it is today..think about it.
i'm off to brushing teeth and go to bed, g'night folks.
- wunderbra0
my answer was for rafalski.
anyway, i am somewhat less pessimistic, especially from a historic perspective.
this is jsut another challenge, as we had many, and as we may expect in the future. don't believe in the apocalypse, friends, like all the fools on the barricades did in previous centuries, in which the battles were fought a lot less clinically, so to speak.
- capsize0
until the 20th c the nether regions, well, you know
- rafalski0
I wasn't that serious about 1492 you know.
I hope you guys find out how to deal with the stuff, even if some voices say it's kind of late and things went out of hand.
The rest of Europe is watching, it's not the only country that is or soon will be facing these issues.
I am an expat in a country that welcomed me warmly, but I take that as a privilege, not a given. I am lucky because I have an EU passport and can communicate in English, but I'd totally agree if I came here without these and was offered to learn the language or leave. How people can think it's not right to expect everyone to learn the language is beyond me. You come to somebody's house, you play by their rules.
- wunderbra0
i salute you, rafal!
goodluck
&
goodnight.
- rafalski0
What have we learned from the past?
Witt
(Nov 6 07, 17:43)The ones in power have learned how easy it is to steer the crowd through democracy, whilst maintaining the impression of everyone's vote counting.
- Witt0
ah. that's true.
Maybe I haven't told this before, but I like the Dutch and what they've done with their small lot.
If that ever happens, I'll vote for a fine (and I mean fine) dutch dude for EU president for staters.
I like how they work, and I have no problems of admitting that. I love that project-solving attitude, the solutions they have achieved, and I think their status as an European judicial/economic reference should inaugurate the new treaty presidency. As a tribute.
But that's my first thought. I'll vote accordingly to my references when the time comes.
It will come.