to my dutch friends
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- wunderbra0
ha, i guess so!
- Witt0
San Marino - it's so little that when something is wrong it always falls on another country.
- rafalski0
Liechtenstein? At least it's a monarchy.
- wunderbra0
the clocks do at least..
nah, switzerland is suffering the burden of extreme right wing ruling now.. or something.
- rafalski0
Just wondering, where do things work then? Switzerland?
- kelpie0
that's an incredibly rosy view of what is happening over here, and I speak as someone who doesn't like hard socialists much.
"Look, it is working, despite the inequalities people in the UK are making good money and even plenty of 'cultural goals' are met."
this is a fraud and if you are hanging a political belief system, off it then we are all in trouble.
- rafalski0
and I would warn against using the UK as any kind of alt model, the gap between rich and poor in this country is shocking and for all our money in the pocket we have much more going out than elsewhere, I know cos I lived elsewhere on a british wage and I lived like a king. well, a duke maybe, or an earl
kelpie
(Nov 7 07, 06:27)The gap is good kelpie! It's ok, it's normal. There must be rich and poor, must be diversity for the whole system to work. That is my point, there must be these differences.
What is normal and works in the UK is considered social injustice in 'other places'. Look, it is working, despite the inequalities people in the UK are making good money and even plenty of 'cultural goals' are met.
EU approach would be "take the money from the everyone (especially the rich) and give it to a million paid burreaucrats to give whatever change is left to the poor who don't want to work but will vote for us". Social justice is done.
- menos0
thanks guys! this whole debate on the politics of the EU and whatnot really helped shine some light my initial question! ;)
- kelpie0
and I would warn against using the UK as any kind of alt model, the gap between rich and poor in this country is shocking and for all our money in the pocket we have much more going out than elsewhere, I know cos I lived elsewhere on a british wage and I lived like a king. well, a duke maybe, or an earl
- kelpie0
nothing is perfect for everyone. easy migration has not been a possibility for a long long time and the situation now is in my opinion a good thing (with teething troubles, granted). you take the bits you don't like when you take advantage of the bits you do. A lot of the things people rail against are at least in the direction of social justice as well, things like minimum wage for example would *probably* never have been introduced here were it not for the socially realigning element of european policy.
I baulk when I hear tax powers raised as a negative against the EU, it reminds me of SE english elite attitudes and The Sun's reasons for being anti-europe.
It annoys me that the UK is not more fundamentally involved because we allow the French and Germans to set the agenda on their terms, but I do see every one of the reasons to hold back, I just think its very easy for us to be painted as wreckers when we express them with one foot outside the door, rather than from the main armchair in the living room.
just mho
- Witt0
school-shooting in Finland btw. 7 dead.
- Witt0
I guess your doubts are totally in place and worth having. For my part I think there are specific aspects of that mumbojumbo that can be positive (especially in turning school system more similar in EU, so that people can move around more freely and their competence/knowledge is similar too). For example.
- joqui0
what parties?
- rafalski0
Remember the EU is a post-war project with social and cultural goals, not just an economical treaty.
Witt
(Nov 7 07, 05:05)That's what I'm concerned about. When I hear "social and cultural goals" type of mumbojumbo my ears perk up and teeth show cause it translates directly to "spending my tax money by burreaucrats" in my book. But that's me you know, I'll vote Ron Paul for president when he moves to EU.
- Witt0
I like the UK approach "we're in because it's good for us but we're not dumb enough to give up control over ourselves"
rafalski
(Nov 7 07, 04:25)i don't think it's very operative - no matter how honest and pragmatic it may sound. what's the point of being in then really? That's exactly how it was before. Remember the EU is a post-war project with social and cultural goals, not just an economical treaty.
Maybe people just don't like having those cultural goals because they stem too much from the french revolution.
- rafalski0
Kelpie I am all for a union of independent but closely tied countries, with a common duty-free market and free people migration within. It isn't like EU invented free migration, up to about 150 years ago it was normal for people to move quite freely within Europe. It's hailed as an EU achievment, but it's just normalcy. Schengen treaty gives free travel without a need for EU.
What I am saying is we don't need the enormous uncontrolled burreaucracy that performs ultraexpensive social and economical engineering on a daily basis. In my opinion strength of the system should come from friendly competition of 20-30 countries' economies. Right now each country tax systems compete and it is good for the overall economy (even if VAT is forced on each by EU). French are pushing for equal taxation in whole EU and believe me you if they're pushing, they will get it. Not today, not tomorrow, but they will, just like they got constitution/treaty.
EU charter of rights is a small step towards it, with so many costly social rights that will lead to an unified EU social tax.
I kind of hope for that because this will be a beginning of a downhill ride for EU and UK will be the first to leave.
I like the UK approach "we're in because it's good for us but we're not dumb enough to give up control over ourselves"
- kelpie0
rafalski are you benefiting directly from the way the EU works though? Forgive me if I'm wrong but wouldn't you have needed a visa and a shit load more hassle to live and work where you do up until quite recently?
- Witt0
I agree with you about the referendum. I think every country should have one and let people decide - although at this time most people would probably vote with a despite feeling. Maybe it should be held AFTER the new format/treaty or whatever that thing is was experienced. Some countries maybe more interested in it than others, e.g.
But on the whole I think Europe will always be like a big sticky pizza with lots of different ingredients and hot pepper in some parts.
- rafalski0
But that's my first thought. I'll vote accordingly to my references when the time comes.
It will come.
Witt
(Nov 6 07, 18:47)Sure it will. It was decided long time ago and people fed with the vision for years.
I kind of like how the guys in EU power don't have to give a shit what people think. The EU is so big and people barely comprehend what's going on in their countries, let alone the Union. Even if some understand, they have no influence whatsoever at this scale. EU was a masterplan in this regard. If a law doesn't come through and gets lost in a voting, all you have to do is wait and have another go later. Repeat until voting results are good. This always work.
Two countries reject the Constitution in referendums and a few more are getting ready to do the same? Simple: rebrand it as a Treaty with basically the same content. Only one EU country needs to hold a referendum on such treaty and the rest has no opportunity to say no.
Problem solved.
- Witt0
also, what kind of europeans don't drink? it's fucked up.
Llyod
(Nov 6 07, 18:53)Well that will be us on the Atlantic. Only we stay sober.