The Devil's Bible
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- flagellum0
gramme: Go easy on the close-minded who have an exclusively western prejudice against the supernatural.
It's the culture they were born into.
- flagellum0
It's just as up to the materialist to prove there is no spiritual realm.
- ********0
gramme: Go easy on the close-minded who have an exclusively western prejudice against the supernatural.
It's the culture they were born into.
flagellum
(Sep 27 07, 09:10)Right, like your religion isn't based on the culture and region you were born into. laughable.
- ********0
Summer breeze makes me feel fine, unicorns and leprechauns in my mind....
- flagellum0
I have no religion, Antonelli. I have a person: Jesus.
And he transcends cultures.
- ********0
wow. thats deep, flag.
im out of this thread... i think i might actually want to get some work done today, lol...
- gramme0
It's up to you to prove it. It's non-existent because you have yet to prove it's existence. You can't just go around making shit up like that...
Antonelli
(Sep 27 07, 09:09)unproven concepts do not equal non-existence. That would be like saying all the many findings of science in this century, that men once considered unfathomable, were non-existent until we discovered them.
If knowledge and existence are the same thing, then shoot me now because I'm too small to be capable of inventing truth.
- ********0
That sounds so interesting.
- gramme0
Spiritual matters cannot be proven be typical empirical methods. Everyone knows that. In the end it comes down to faith, until the world ends and the intangible becomes accutely tangible.
There could be more to this universe than can be scientifically established. To say that scientific proof is the be-all and end-all of truth is a massive backwards step, putting us right back at the center of the universe, some time shortly before the advent of the Renaissance.
Have some imagination and consider that our human perspective might be terribly limited and thus not to be trusted as a definitive measuring tool for understanding all things beyond our tiny little corner of the universe.
- flagellum0
"Have some imagination and consider that our human perspective might be terribly limited and thus not to be trusted as a definitive measuring tool for understanding all things beyond our tiny little corner of the universe. "
amen!
- ********0
That was so heartfelt.
- duckofrubber0
Gramme, by your own logic, then, any idea of spirituality that humans define has an equal amount of validity/invalidity due to its own lack of being empirically provable. That would make all ideas right and wrong simultaneously. To choose any idea as right is to admit it is also wrong. Duality could be the very underlying nature of reality/unreality.
Also, when you cite the example of scientific discoveries as new-found truths, you directly support the argument in favor of empirical evidence. You cannot have/eat your cake with this logic unless you choose to agree that duality is the very nature of us/them.
Faith in a god and lack of faith in a god are the same question/answer. We all float in the ether inbetween...
- gramme0
Gramme, by your own logic, then, any idea of spirituality that humans define has an equal amount of validity/invalidity due to its own lack of being empirically provable. That would make all ideas right and wrong simultaneously. To choose any idea as right is to admit it is also wrong. Duality could be the very underlying nature of reality/unreality.
Also, when you cite the example of scientific discoveries as new-found truths, you directly support the argument in favor of empirical evidence. You cannot have/eat your cake with this logic unless you choose to agree that duality is the very nature of us/them.
Faith in a god and lack of faith in a god are the same question/answer. We all float in the ether inbetween...
duckofrubber
(Sep 27 07, 10:08)Yes, that would all be true and completely logical, if you hadn't missed the crux of my logic and the foundation of my belief (logic and belief being two very different things): my ideas on spirituality were not authored by any human being, but were revealed by Another greater Source that exists outside of time, outside of corruption and far above quaint human comprehension.
This explains why there are some things in the Bible that don't "make sense" to me or most others. A lot of it is accessible because, according to the aforementioned book, God actually does want to be understood, at least as much as weak human minds can grasp. These "incomprehensibles" are things like the Trinity, the idea of God being both fully God and fully man in the person of Jesus, etc. etc.
My point with the scientific analogy was merely that truth is out there, is to an unknown degree undiscovered, and does not take on true existence at our intellectual request. There are two ways that truth can be realized, and the methods each work for different kinds of truth: 1) Empirical scientific method and 2) Spiritual Revelation. The basic difference between the two methods is that the first is driven by humanity and the second is driven by divinity.
Faith in a God or gods and lack of faith are both products of belief. They are two completely different answers to the same question, and they cannot both be right. God cannot both exist in a real sense and not exist at the same time.
- gramme0
...all that being said, there is much that I do not understand, and I am humbled by the smallness my own imperfect picture of the world and existence.
...the grass withers and the flowers fade...
- lemmys_wart0
"Have some imagination and consider that our human perspective might be terribly limited and thus not to be trusted as a definitive measuring tool for understanding all things beyond our tiny little corner of the universe. "
jesus, no wonder billions fall for the miracles that only happend before codifed science, spoon bending, left behind, mind reading, faith healing, god speaking only to old men alone in the desert, dungeons and dragons bullshit you call religion.
that said, the deivls bible is an ill book...
- duckofrubber0
We are small in the macro, but giants in the micro. An ant may believe you to be a god as your shoe comes down upon it. Is the ant right or wrong?
- Mimio0
People aren't obligated to prove that there isn't a "spiritual realm". The person who proposes that idea bears the burden. Think about it.
- version30
funny how people who say anything and everything is possible somehow forget that in that they are also saying it is possible that not everything is possible.
version6
(Sep 24 07, 09:16)
- gramme0
funny how people who say anything and everything is possible somehow forget that in that they are also saying it is possible that not everything is possible.
version6
(Sep 24 07, 09:16)
version6
(Sep 27 07, 12:09)I didn't say everything is possible. I merely said it's obtuse to declare "Nope, the supernatural does not exist, no way – because I have not seen it."
I would say that a very great many things are improbable (like the existence of aliens), but not necessarily impossible – foe example the nonexistence of aliens has not been proven.
Of course I am sure there are some people here on NT who believe wholeheartedly in the existence of aliens, mainly because you WANT to believe. Funny how that works.
- gramme0
People aren't obligated to prove that there isn't a "spiritual realm". The person who proposes that idea bears the burden. Think about it.
Mimio
(Sep 27 07, 12:07)People are most certainly obligated to prove the non-existence of the spiritual realm if they make definitive statements like "it does not exist." That is a statement of pure faith, or lack thereof. A conclusion about the existence or non-existence of the spiritual realm is not something that can be directly proven using logic. I'm fully aware that LOGICALLY it is a weak argument to say "God exists, because you can't disprove his existence." I ultimately appeal to the "cloud of witnesses" in history and in the Bible (a book which has been confirmed as historically accurate by archaeology more times than I can count, at least in regard to the stories that are obviously not parable), to what has been revealed to me through faith, and through what I see in the world around me (which I admit is a very limited viewpoint and not to be trusted exclusively).
At the end of the day, neither I nor anyone else can PROVE the existence of God. If he wants you to know him, he will prove his existence to you. He has done it for me and countless others. It really has nothing to do with my intelligence, ability to debate, or lack thereof.