Tables… bad?
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- planet01
tables are bad because?
i'm more on the design end of things... so this is an honest question. why are all the css standards folk get so uptight about using tables?
- k0na_an0k0
Who are you designing for? Your client or some CSS guy here who can blow smoke up your ass about good lookin CSS code?
- mrseaves0
"BOOM. there goes the dynomite"
yeah. what k0na said
- mg330
Kona is saying that it's best to design for the CSS guy here who can blow smoke up your ass about good lookin CSS code because otherwise you will NEVER hear the end of it.
- planet010
In general... clients, it's just strange to me to hear some guys freaking out about designing with tables. if they have some legit reason, i'd like to know. but right now, i am not seeing what the big deal is.
- Mimio0
Generally speaking it produces less code and is more easily editable.
- acescence0
table based designs are harder to maintain, generally contain more lines of code which equals more bandwidth you have to pay for, and search engines have a harder time making sense of it all
- lofielectronic0
I think it does now come down to standards more than anything - I was late making the leap because CSS layouts seemed confusing to begin with and a lot more work to make a page but now, I dread having to uptate some old clients sites as I have to remember tables and don't have the freedom to shift things about.
I guess if you just need them for sometihng dead simple its not a problem - google anything and like as not their will be a tabled site on the front page and it won't take 'longer' to load either.
I think they are bad because once you've got the hang of it your a lot more free to edit amend CSS and it leads to cleaner, simpler code?
- flavorful0
Easier to update a CSS file, or add a new class than update the same in-code style tags you have on every single thing; Standards; Less server time rendering properly formatted CSS DIV-SPANS than TABLE-TR-TD; Cleaner;
And I can not stress this enough.
Fucking easier for the person who has to update it later and you are nowhere to be found, or fired (because you fucking code in tables) and then I have to change everything into proper CSS.
...
Bah.
I am bitter, hahah.
v5 always has a great line about why it is better to use tables, I meant to write it down last time.
- k0na_an0k0
It also comes down to form following function.
100% table design to get the job done
50/50 tables/CSS
100% CSS
Whatever of the combo needed to complete the task at hand considering time, cost, maintenance and shit.
It all depends and yeah what mg33 said. Don't ever show a table site here or you'll never hear the last of it which is Ironic when you consider what Newstoday's code is. ha
- acescence0
oh also, try to visit a heavy table based site with a screen reader, and then give a well formed css page a try. the difference will be immediately apparent
- madirish0
Don't ever show a table site here or you'll never hear the last of it which is Ironic when you consider what Newstoday's code is. ha
k0na_an0k
(Apr 19 07, 14:02)because of the fact this is a viable source for feedback and honest critique (when done properly, mind you) and that it is built in tables; makes producing websites in tables a poor idea?
sorry man, don't follow you there....
- Witt0
tables are nice if you want to incorporate the table feeling to the design aka showing borders. but they are harder to manage between browsers.
people tend to use layers (div) because you can add javascript to them - like make be or be not, and your css is much simpler, because tables have hierarchy (table, tr, td)
i think div are best if you need some client-side interactivity, but in a simple website when you may want to use background, ground and foreground tables are still hot and welcome.
don't follow the hype. it doesn't get you anywhere in creativity. use what you need for a specific job and let the hype for the "artists".
- k0na_an0k0
sorry man, don't follow you there....
madirish
(Apr 19 07, 14:06)Should I have formatted my response in CSS so you could follow?
:)
- mg330
tables are nice if you want to incorporate the table feeling to the design aka showing borders. but they are harder to manage between browsers.
Witt
(Apr 19 07, 14:08)you can do the same thing with css, very easily, and far easier to edit than tables ever could be.
Oh, and need I stress more:
All CSS layout + Firefox + https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US…=
awesomeness.
- jevad0
whatever. gets. the job. done.
nothing rubs me up the wrong way the css/standards nazis who have nothing better to do than complain that a website is using tables for non tabular data....
- mg330
I get what you're saying jevad, but can't you understand the argument being made for standards and simplicity?
To change the size of a content div, you change in one location.
To change the size of a table width, you have to change it in X # of pages.
- bulletfactory0
css based design is nice as it enables you to totally separate content from presentation.
potentially allowing different media types a more specialized experience. or something.
- Witt0
i don't get it mg33, you can control tables too with css, and very very well.
for example, you can say that any specific (#) cell in a table row needs a specific bg and all you have to do is to add a class.
td # ... ( background: etc
whilst to do the same in div you would need to include the ID in each html entity and call the class. that takes more code.
so the best thing is not to ponder if divs or tables are best, but what best suits your needs. i don't think there's a paradigma for this.
- jevad0
I get what you're saying jevad, but can't you understand the argument being made for standards and simplicity?
absofrigginloutely my man...but when somebody shits on a design because they have used a table for something...a hack...or whatever...to get something to work properly...grrrrr
- mimeartist0
isn't the point that with tables you can spec row spans so the order of info if stripped out by a reader could be in the wrong order?
best thing i got from a conference yesterday was that more people have flash 8, than have a standards compliant browser... interesting!