God and Jesus
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- discipler0
hehe, quincy. If I had a nickel for every time I got that "Reasoning From The Scriptures" question from JW's. ;)
Jesus, in his humanity, was praying to the person of the Father. Because Jesus, in his humanity, was subject to the Father. (see Philippians 2-5-11)
- discipler0
The question demonstrates the misunderstanding that the Watchtower has about the dual nature of Christ. They emphasize his humanity at the expense of his deity.
- dopepope0
you are all missing the point. God is Dog backwards. And Jesus is Susej backwards, which kinda sounds like sausage. See? Dog sausage!
The difference is dog sausage!
- ********0
thanks for clearing that up dopepope....
;)
- QuincyArcher0
heh...i guess you've figured me out, then...
well...anyway, looks like PonyBoy probably covered any point i would make...i'll wait for another more interesting topic to jump back in.
- Gilt0010
But what about the period of creation where Jesus was "glad for Him all the time".
Why was Jesus called the firstborn Son again?
What did the Bible say was God's first creation?
The whole subject of Jesus not being God doesn't have to be THAT arbitrary like you need some sort of specialized training to understand it.
And for the supreme being in the universe to come down and offer himself as a sacrifice in exchange for the lives of sinful humanity is just crazy.
- QuincyArcher0
Wait...i'm back...
What do you believe the point of Jesus being killed was?
- discipler0
Jesus was called the "Second Adam". He was the ransom sacrifice for all of our sins past, present and future. The propitiation for "the whole world".
- QuincyArcher0
one more point worth making...
JW's don't believe that Jesus has only ever exhisted as a person. He was angel before, and was resurrected as an Angel after he died...
i feel that saying that we focus too much on his earthly life is slightly unfair.
- ********0
Jehova Witnesses are strange folk
- Mimio0
Don't worry, no one really takes what JWs say too seriously. How many times have they "predicted" the end of the world?
- discipler0
Gilt, a text out of context becomes a pretext (for error usually).
1. Jesus is called the "Firstborn over all creation". The greek word (Prototokos,. I think) means pre-eminent one, or "ruler". So, understanding the language, culture and context of the passage, we conclude that he was just that, over creation. Just like with Isaac and Esau. The one who was not physically born first, was given the title "Firstborn".
2. The Bible says that God created the Heavens and the earth first.
3. Nothing difficult to see. A quick glance over the new testament and the layperson will conclude that Christ was divine. It's replete.
- Gilt0010
uh, zero
- QuincyArcher0
JazX, we're not as weird as you think.
Dicipler, just making sure we're on the same page...
The ransom needed to be paid, because we had a debt, so to speak, to God. It doesn't make sense to me that God would pay the debt back to himself...
- Mimio0
JWs didn't start this argument they just co-opted it. The divinity of Jesus has been contentious for a long time, like 1985+ years
- discipler0
I think their last prediction was 1975, mimio, but I need to check... they may have done it again since then.
I remember everyone was selling their property and stuff just before that year.
- ********0
Not trying to offend you but I've heard and seen some strange things come out of that clan over the years.
:)
- Mimio0
They did it before WWI too.
- discipler0
Quincy, the NT says that Christ's ransom was for "many" and "for the whole world". He was the propitiation for everyone. And he needed to be divine to be sinless and thus the proper sacrifice.
The stumbling point I always see when discussing this with JW's is this: when I say "God" JW's think exclusively of the person of the "Father". But, the biblical teaching is that "God" is Father, Son & Holy Spirit.
- QuincyArcher0
I think their last prediction was 1975, mimio, but I need to check... they may have done it again since then.
I remember everyone was selling their property and stuff just before that year.
discipler
(Dec 5 05, 13:32)
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HEY! that idea was never endorsed by the organization!however, many members did believe that the end would come in 1975...and it showed through in what they preached and how they lived their lives.