<-- Not About Oil or Irak
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- KArmaPolice0
How is that a cop out?
The good bunnies believe the gorilla is good. He is their protection.
The bad bunnies think the gorilla is evil because he spends most his time trading carrots for bananas with only the good bunnies.
It depends were you fit in. A matter of your own personal perspective on things.
- KArmaPolice0
This is starting to scare even me.
And I started the whole gorilla/bunny story.
- Bluejam0
The gorilla is either good or bad from the bunny's point of view. The bunnies are either good or bad from your (KarmaPolice) point of view...
...but what is your point of view about the gorilla, good or bad?
This is somehow both funny, painful and stoopid all rolled into one. Quite bizarre.
- KArmaPolice0
yes, I came to the same conclusion.
- chilaquil0
what if I shove a carrot and a banana in the gorilla's ass while he sleeps?
- js_0
karma ... your defeatist views and borderline nihilist opinions of 'this is the world we live in, and no changes can be made' are obviously held strongly. I can't debate your opinions on the world or how retroactive a single human being can be even WITHOUT a revolution, but I just wish you could see that any imposed death for reasons beyond direct self-defense are morally wrong.
- IRNlun60
i'm confused. is it the Gorilla who believes in Karma or one of the bunnies?
- sexypixel0
The thing that scares me is that if the US keeps flexing its muscles, it is going to push europe further and futher away until europe will join and build its own united military force. Europe loves to be hand in hand with the US, but the way things are going there will be no more co-operation between the two, only more bloodshed. This rift has to be stopped, we have to begin to want the same again. I think the true test will come when the war ends and we see how the US handles its ocupation of Iraq. Will it listen to the UN, or will it again, do its own thing.
I heard a good analogy the other nite.
"Being in bed with the US is like being in bed with and Elephant. The elephant may like you, but sooner or later it is going to roll over and crush you."
- darkstar0
this is so sad. this whole disccussion, and frankly it shames me that i am from the same country as Karma. its so sad to hear people give cop out excuses like "thats the way it is.. enjoy it" or the like.
as americans we should be proud of what we have accomplished, and have done for humanity over that last 200 + years. Electrictiy, democracy (??), space travel, penicillian.
But we should also be the guiding light for other countries. a shining example of how a people united can make this world a better, safer place for all people.
violence will never solve anything. true leaders understand this. The dali lama, ghandi, martin luther king.
its so upsetting that the kind, and compassionate people
are too often not heard over the beating of wars drums..
- Duck0
I had to leave yesterday after work, and today I was too busy doing REAL work to hit NT. But here I am for those of you who missed me.
I had not heard about the cluster bombs being used in Iraq. I was informed otherwise. Thanks. Unfortunatly I have yet to read an article here that proves "Widespread Use of Cluster Bombs" as one of the headlines stated. This article talked about 1 bomb in 1 area. Hardly widespread. It was also one of the most biased opinions I have ever seen. The entire article talked about the bomb, how deadly it is and how it was used in kosovo and afganistan. There is a paragraph or two where they talk about it being used in Iraq on civilians. Once. Widespread my ass. Mistakes happen. We've shot down 2 coalition planes with our own patriot missles. Do you think we did that on purpose too?
If anyone else wants to make lame exuses for why we are forcing saddam out of power by method of war, go ahead.
In the mean time I would like to say, that we are at war. What are you expecting? People die in war. I think this one will have the lowest innocent death rates of any war. So stop talking about deaths and start arguing about why we should have given saddam a couple more months instead of sticking to our word when we said last chance.
And don't start looking at other lame exuses as to why america or any other country in the coalition is corrupt. Every county is corrupt in some respects, but don't stray from the question.
Is Iraq disarming?
And another thing. Did the UN make any progress in Iraq without the threat of war from the US?
I have a 21st b-day to attend so I may not be here again tonight to answer your comments, I'm sure I'll see you here in another war thread.
I have to pay my tab.
- KArmaPolice0
Borderline Nihilism?
How fun would that discussion be on NT. But there is truth in that statement js_.
Our we looking at death as something only humans can and animals can achieve? Or can nation states die also?
If we are not protecting our people or the Iraqi people then we are protecting American currency and world dominance.
Would it not be morally wrong to let the worlds leading economic power collapse. Would that not cause more death and despair than this war?
Just thoughts...
- js_0
When I speak of death, I mean it merely in the physical sense, but I do see your point in the nation state comparison.
However, I do not believe that the mere possibility of financial troubles in the future justifies forceable regime change, and preemptive attacks. One of my biggest problems with this war, is the shroud of lies that our Administration have utilized to shield the true selfish intentions of it in the first place ( be it nothing new, but that doesnt quell my discontentment withit, and as well i don't believe it should). There is a reason for this, and I would like to believe it is because the majority of citizens are of the same mindset as I am in believing protection of the power of American Currency within OPEC does not justify this war. So of course they use the excuse of disarmement, protection of american liberties, prevention of another 9-11, and liberation of the Iraqi people who are in "dire need" of it .. but somehow WEREN'T when the United States Government was conducting plenty of business with Saddam. ok, getting off topic.
Anyways, I still find it disheartening that you are so acceptant of current administrations and cultural practices such as war. Slavery was simply a part of human nature until the likes of Jean Jacques Rousseau, Frederick Douglass, Mohandis Gandhi and too many other to name made their opinions and beliefs known to the public.
The more thought I have put to the "violence is a part of human nature" the more I am forced to question it. Regrettably I have not done much research in this area, but I do believe I will be making some stops over to the library now that my curiosity is peeked. Perhaps the thought that we can transcend violence is mere romanticism, but perhaps accepting it as nature is only due to our inexposure to any alternative.
- Peter0
"don't stray from the question.
Is Iraq disarming?"Just a thought:
If they had weapons of mass destruction, wouldn't they have used them already?
- js_0
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/Articl…
where are our "precision strikes" Duck ? Where is our "genuine" concern for avoiding even the slightest civilian casualty ? This is an operation that is win at all costs, not "eliminate the bad men and allow innocent life to flourish" as our esteemed president has tried to push on us countless times.
- KArmaPolice0
js_,
I quess we can agree to disagree.
I think if you want to read one book that can send you off on many different direction in human nature read Howard Bloom's The Lucifer Principle.
You may get a total different view of the world from reading it than me. That's OK. The world is how you look at it. Is it not?
Governments were built to lie.
It's how people are controlled.You can search for the "truth" But then again people only search for their "truth" Which side of truth do you want to be on.
- js_0
very true Karma ... and thanks for the tip on the book, i'll be grabbing it today and giving it a good read.
Its just that regardless how futile a situation has seemed in my mind, I have always found comfort in the hope that a change CAN be made, and it does not need to be through violence or revolutionary action. Sometimes it seems logical minds and intelligence can prevail.
even though I have lost hope for democracy with this administration, and most possibily any administration that comes into office without being radically different from anything we have had in the past decade or two. Senator Robert Byrd ( who has served in the congress for 50 years now ) has said that this is the most secretive white house he has ever seen, and that he has never seen such intolerance for the Legislative Branch as he has seen with this administration.
I just refuse to accept that some things are completely inevitable, sometimes these changes take time, patience, and a motivation that goes unfettered. Many great civilizations have laid plans before us to illustrate how change is possible, and many of them do not involve violent revolution.
- KArmaPolice0
We are looking to the government to change.
We have to get the people to change their minds and with the education system as it is...thats not coming soon. (Money will not help the school system - strong standards will) We wait for our leaders to speak and then we follow.
I personally fint this administration refreshing in the fact it has they make desicions and stick with them. They take chances and only history can be the judge of the outcome in the middle east. I find this to be a bold move...I like bold moves.
The NY Time opinion page has a good article by Thomas L. Friedman. It's about the middle east silent opinion of this war. Good read. He also had a good show on Discovery Channel about the middle east view of america...also good.
- DanK0
Some reading:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com…
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/…
http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/si…
http://www.corpwatch.org/home/PH…
http://www.mediatransparency.org…These long links might get messed up in the copy/paste - you know how to fix'em...
We Americans really need to get our heads out of the sand and realize what this adminitrating is perpetrating...we have this idea that we are the good guys in the world and that our government would never lie to us (and that everyone else in the worl must be the ones lying), but it just isn't true, this administration with the help of greedy corporations is pulling the wool over our eyes. I have to respect the administration for the audicty it has to lie so blatantly to the American public and get us dumb americans to believe it. Now (mostly lower-economic class) americans are going off to kill poor Iraqis to line the pockets of the upper echelons of a few corportations. The Bush administration doesn't give a flying fuck about liberating iraq - people need to wakr up and get eductaed. Turn off the TV- THE MORE YOU WATCH THE LESS YOU KNOW!
- js_0
interesting reads, most of those i've already read, but the one I hadn't I believe was the most interesting .. the one on sovereignty.org.uk ... about Iraq / Iran and the gassing of the Kurds. First I've read of this .. and coming from a CIA Senior Political Analyst, it sparks my interest ... i'd like to see what further information is about this .. and what documents HAVE been supplied if any about the legitimacy of the claims that this gas WAS Iraq's.
Thanks for story.
- js_0
oh .. and if you liked the article by Josh Marshall in the Washington Monthly ( http://www.washingtonmonthly.com… ) ... you may want to check out his site .. he updates it with his opinions just about everyday ... and there is alot of interesting stuff that he posts from alot of his sources.
check it out if you like: