what it's all about?
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- Tattie0
MM may not always be right, however he is entitled to air his opinion - that's democracy.
- petzi0
sometimes i think we get what we deserve with this crisis
- vena0
and we're free to expose him as a liar that hurts the very causes he's trying to promote. no responsible left wants him on our side. he lies, and when he lies, he gives everyone that much more reason to disregard the argument.
- unknown0
thats a dubious argument Vena...
Russia, greatly needs the money, and all those oil fields used to belong to them, and I dont think they are going to relinquish them easily.
Yes your right Britain are involved, after all we are the second biggest exporter of wepons in the world, we gave Iraq all their wepons.
I do find the whole Enron investment in the area and the Enron went bust, a bit of a difficult one to get though.
America, long realised ago, post Vietnam that the best way to dominate an area or country is to do it financially, Malaisia the perfect example. They were doing that quite nicely, until Enron fucked up, left big debt owing to the Taliban and Indian and Pakistani governments. hence the nuclear testing etc. A good way to fuck America off, once they pulled out their investment.?
fuck its more interecting than mac v pc anyway
- jevad0
vena - there is a lot of difference between outright lying - and padding the truth out a little bit.
I haven't finished reading those articles yet - but they strike me as being incredibly anti-moore for no reason other than to discredit him and expose him as a fake and a fraud.
- exador0
one thing i've noticed is how its pitting the EU against the US.
the eruo is getting stronger, and for the first time in history, the countries of europe are working together in a union...
one of the reasons america is so strong a force world wide, is that it has 50 odd large states working in unison...thats an economic force to be reckoned with, and a big reason why the states has so much world influence...
i think maybe the states is looking at the EU like its a bit of a economic threat, and this whole iraq thing is just jumping at the chance to gain some economic power in the region that would probably have benefited the EU...
that make sense to anyone?...
which explains why the big players in the EU (france germany etc) are so steadfast against the US on their Iraq policy...
and why some of the smaller EU nations, are siding with the states..
figuring, well, hell...france and germany etc have been keeping us down for ages, only giving us the small pickings..if we toss our eggs into the american basket, maybe it'll get us more influence...or something..what do you guys think...there something to that?
- Tattie0
Lies? Let's just say he bends the true to suit his own requirments.
A true politician.
- vena0
the unfortunate problem there is that russia doesn't have the military to launch an invasion anymore.
beyond that, if you want to make these conspiratory, shadow-government claims, you'll have to back them up if you want me to be involved in the conversation. i really don't have time for the new breed of conspiracy theorist™
- unknown0
exador, there is some truth in that...
Vena, it's the UK and US governments that create the conspiracy. For one they know what Saddam has got in weaponary, because we sold it too him, so why is he a threat now and not 6 years ago?
fuck if your using 9/11 as a benchmark, a jet is a weapon of mass destruction.
I just which they would be a bit more transparant about why they want to go to war in Iraq.
If it was weapons, N. Korea, India, Pakistan, Israel, are far more advanced, and equally as nuts. So why not get them.
I get the suspision that its personal, and I can only theorise, as we will never know.
But thanks for your time Vena, you self imortant........
- vespa0
Germany and France's move is definitely a bid for power in Europe.
Turkey is crucial to the US and Britain as it oversees the Middle East's oilfields. Turkey is the recipient of billions of dollars' of American arms, used to crush ongoing Turkish Kurd rebellions, the same people Saddam gassed with Western complicity.
Britain has also crushed the Kurds in the past. After WW1 Iraq was divided up between France and Britain, and when the Kurds rose up, Winston Churchill said "I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes."
- ********0
we shall harvest what WE have sown.....just a pity no-one asked the ordinary folks if they agreed with which kind of seeds we were sowing......
- ********0
My mix of everything said trying to justify a massacre of innocent civillians....
- vena0
i don't think you meant to say "6 years ago" because that was right after the *last* war with iraq.
but let's assume you meant 15-20 years ago, when we gave him those weapons.
back then, Iraq was our buddy, our allie. they were fighting Iran, which at the big bad evil of the time. the tricky thing, of course is that reagan sold arms to iran so they would hold prisoners of ours and help him get re-elected (thus dubbed the iran-contra scandal).
governments transparent? they are: they lie.
but you're assuming that the buildup over iraq is a new thing. it's not at all, and has been going on for 12 years. you're also assuming that nobody's bothering with north korea, indea, pakistan, or israel. in this case i can only say that you're being led by the leash of the media. what the media reports isn't the whole of what's going on, and if you only pay attention to the headlines, all you're going to think is happening in the world are the headlines. the US is going after north korea the same way they went after iraq initially - economically. india was warned about their nuclear development quite vocally last year when this first hit the news, and pakistan is *at best* a fair weather friend. they were being used for the afghanistan invasion. we knew it, they knew it.
- mitsu0
vena, for a designer, you certainley know your politics and history, is this a side hobby or mild fascination for you?
- unknown0
I grew up hearing about troubles in the middle-east. Iran-Iraq confrontations, or terrorist attacks, anywhere in the middle-east, are no-news since the early-80s. It is pretty obvious that wars in this region are fuelled by some kind of rich natural-resource. Natural resources in developing countries tend to develop into wars, by enabling power struggles to be discussed with expensive weaponry. See Angolan diamond and oil mix for a fourty year war example. And middle-east is a zone of consecutive wars, with generations of people who have always lived at war, and probably think it is as much a part of their world as the sun or the moon.
It doesn't take much to conclude that wars in the middle-east are caused by the most important natural resource of our time: fossil fuels, namely oil. In cold-war days, US and USSR played political games in the region to get control of oil. Naturally, none completely succeeded. Now, there's only one player. And in a one player game, victory is certain.
Currently, the US are playing for control of Saudi Arabia. The king is old, and his successor is uncertain. The Iraq attack scenario is an excuse to plant a few hundred thousand men and their equipment in the region. This alone guarantees control of the succession mechanism and political allegiance of the new king.
The response? Europe can't possibly compete military with the US. However, we compete technologically. We have the means to make oil control a moot point in ten years. Even inside the US.
I can see how N.Korea fall into that catagory or for that matter India
- vespa0
Vena, I'm confused. You do seem to know about the oil and world power play issues that are behind the current invasion of Iraq.
Yet you are also pro-war?
- exador0
vena isn't pro war...
he's just pro 'being informed'
don't get all your info and soundbites from one place..
the left side of things politically, and the right side of things are usually biased ...
the truth is always somewhere in the dirty middle...
and when you find the middle..
you'll see vena sitting on bench, asking 'been waiting here a while..what took you so long?'
;)
ex
- vespa0
I am also very much in favour of being informed.
Vena's comments have given me the impression that he is pro war - am I wrong Vena? Just curious, not confronting.
- vena0
mitsu: i'm actually not really interested in politics. i'd rather be chasing girls. but it's really REALLY cold out :)
vespa: i'm not pro-war. i'm not pro-america. i'm only willing to defend america as far as others are willing to vilify it with bad logic and no facts. if i'm pro-anything, i'm pro-rational thinking.
- vespa0
Fair enough. Respect.