UK in/out Europe?
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- deathboy-2
I probably don't know enough about the EU. But the reasons stated at the top of the last page for separation seem to make sense. If i was there I think I'd vote out.
If the EU was created to resolve conflict and unite a few countries and reduce conflict I can see that as being a good thing. And probably a good idea by the people who had it at the time. It's like a parent who makes there son and daughter who are fighting hug it out. But a good parent shouldn't than chain the siblings hugging together for all eternity out of fear of future conflict.
The major merits of all of society have been created from individuals, and countries can be thought of as individuals in a larger system. As individual countries they can compete and choose to fight entrophy in different ways. And there will be winners and losers. But humanity as a larger picture benefits. VS one "nation or whatever" being run by a set of politicians who might have been good 10 years ago, but entropy happens and bad ones got in. Now you have one giant collective neck to be hung by. So in the end all the plans of creating a great unified system to prevent conflict gets taken over and falls apart. Call it entrophy or incest.
It seems like since WWII the US has been moving in the general direction the EU has by removing state power and replacing it with federal laws. Plenty of popular thinkers have plainly written that that's what they wanted because they knew best, and maybe some did, but what of their successor? Why im more for state control in the US. I would much prefer local elections to carry more wait than a single presidential one. Especially with our current election... I don't know why its not. Maybe media and incentives of worrying about a single president being far easier and less time consuming to form an educated opinion. Why most people probably vote left or right without any knowing of what left or right even means to the candidates.
Also its a popular opinion that monopolies are bad and terrible things. Why aren't governments thought of in that aspect? All of the reasons why monopolies are bad are the same for centralized power. Be funny if a gov ever warned its people of its growing power and influence over individuals everyday lives. Or that the smaller the gov and the more freedom is a sign of a better system.
But I lean towards freedom before security. A lot of people don't. I'm sure any exit would take time and there would be pains but I think for the bigger picture it could be a better thing for more people. And isn't it a good sign when more countries can cooperate independently without being forced controlled by a single gov. Shouldn't the single gov be a measure of how we haven't broken away from our tribalism conflict instincts? Either way good luck on your end over there and see you in a couple weeks.
- it's less federal version of the USA.lowimpakt
- oh. well if it was me that's the way i'd vote. on basic fundamentals of systems and entropy. from your post below it still seems too many steppeddeathboy
- and fundamentally proned to favor the interests of lobbyists. more rules create more necessity for middlemen. like lawyers and realtorsdeathboy
- you can get lost in the details but i wonder if people will still contest a entropy of larger indirect systems. people see it biz everyday.deathboy
- 3 levels of marketing directors + one VP of something or another. Everything i know is to reject such systems because they hardly ever produce anything gooddeathboy
- jaysuskingsteven
- lowimpakt0
I think it is important to discuss how laws are made at an EU level.
we're told that it's only faceless bureaucrats and it is undemocratic.
This basic image give an overview.
The European Commission is the part that proposes legislation. The commission is broken up into various offices that relate to key policy areas (similar to departments).
The heads of these offices (commissioners) are national politicians who have been elected in their own country but have been suggested by the current government for the role.
One change is that when they become a commissioner they are required to work in the European interest rather than only their national/party interest.
The commission is constantly interacting with research, interest groups (NGOs, lobbyists), citizen groups etc. to understand what issues should be addressed at a European Dimension (trade, workers rights, climate change, products and food safety etc. )
Once the commission has proposed an idea for legislation there is liaison with national parliaments.
The idea for legislation is then passed onto the directly elected Parliament for debate and to the Council of Ministers (sitting heads of state).
There is then a process of co-decision where the directly elected parliament and sitting heads of government decide on what should be implemented.
Once it has passed this process it has to be implemented by national parliaments.
Many EU laws are "directives". These are more like suggestions on how laws should be implemented. It has been up to each member state to decide on how to implement.
This is a bit of a nightmare because everyone does things differently thus defeating the purpose of working at a transnational level.
There is now a greater emphasis on harmonisation.
so in summary, the commission is headed up by politicians who have been elected by their public but appointed by their national government.
The European parliament is directly elected by each country.
The council of Ministers is made up of the current sitting government.
It's far less about faceless bureaucrats and undemocratic procedure than Farage would lead you to believe.
- jesus that's a long postlowimpakt
- more democratic than UK parliamentkingsteven
- Dillinger1
"Both Cameron and Farage support TTIP. The UK will be suckered into it irrespective of the BREXIT outcome. UK law will be suspended in favour of an unelected pro-corporation EU tribunal, with unchallengeable decisions and the option to apply unlimited 'remedies'. BREXIT is a distraction from this."
baaah baaah sheeple
- besides, Liberals are so easily manipulatedDillinger
- your point is baaah baaah sheeple?kingsteven
- populist generation they never question anything out of fear of leaving the herd. bit like you.Dillinger
- i just asked you a question.kingsteven
- if your point is that the entire referendum campaign is (on both sides) a populist liberal fabrication, i agree.kingsteven
- << ThisChimp
- kingkong0
I could write something, but I think this says it all:
A world of opportunity is waiting for a fully independent Britain. This country is a leading economic power, its language is global, its laws are trusted and its reputation for fair dealing is second to none. To say we cannot thrive free of the EU’s constraints is defeatist and flies in the face of this country’s great mercantile traditions.
Indeed, so fragile is this political construct that the departure of one of its members, and especially one as big as the UK, threatens to trigger terminal instability. And why is that? If this were a robust democratic institution, underpinned by a thriving economy and a content and happy citizenry then Britain’s withdrawal should have no impact at all. Of course, if it were such a utopia then we wouldn’t be having a discussion about leaving in the first place; but it isn’t.
- My friend worked for Enfield Council but left because it was like the Portlandia comedy. She couldnt finish any projects, they just had endless meetings.Dillinger
- This is modern Britain, progressive liberal hellDillinger
- is Enfield Council more efficient now?Fax_Benson
- Ah the good old torygraphfadein11
- Enfield is a joke as are the rest, full lefty marxist moronsDillinger
- so her leaving didn't help? not sure what your point is.Fax_Benson
- The point is that Dillinger is a swivel-eyed goon who sees The Red Menace in almost every facet of modern life.face_melter
- Tell me what the EU's "constraints" are.Chimp
- "Indeed, so fragile is this political construct that the departure of one of its members, and especially one as big as the UK, " - and the Scotland?Chimp
- Wolfboy3
One of the key points for me during this whole debate was when Michael Gove (cunt) said:
“People in this country have had enough of experts”
Yes, don't listen to what the fucking egg heads are saying my little plebs, vote from your gut and remember how nasty anyone who is slightly different to you is.
I personally prefer to listen to those that have more information. This is worth 25 mins of anyone's time, especially if you're still undecided:
This (stinking) expert has also got some interesting things to say about immigration:
- < thisfadein11
- Was going to post this vid. Essential viewing if undecided. Finally, a fucking expert is able to speak.LukeO
- You mean like the experts who put together the entire European project without democratic consensus? Such criticism's a two-way street...detritus
- or like the expert, Tusk, who recently stated that other experts have been living with their head in the clouds?
http://bit.ly/1UgdLD…detritus - I do agree with you that Gove is a cunt though. Wholeheartedly. I know politics shouldn't be about personality, but fuck him, Johnson, Farage, Cameron. All dem.detritus
- for the record, I think it's ridiculous we're allowed to vote on this subject at all—it should be in the hands of apolitical experts, philosophers, economists..detritus
- ^ yep blame the idiot Cameron for that.fadein11
- @detritus,I completely agree with you about the referendum in general. The man on the street is just not well read enough to make decisions on this.Wolfboy
- But in general, I do trust people who speak in more than sound bites on topics such as this. The TV debates with the various politicians and the coverage in...Wolfboy
- ...the ridiculous UK press has been of no use to help make an informed choice. It could be argued that the guy in the video has a bias, but his points are...Wolfboy
- ...more than just an attempt to squeeze the words 'take back control' into every sentence.Wolfboy
- Wolfboy1
Anyway, this whole thread is now irrelevant because the he has spoken:
http://www.independent.co.uk/new…
What more information does anyone need now?
- Wolfboy0
Also, an old QBN favourite has chosen:
"I choose...."
"remmMMAAAAAAIIIINNN"
- oey0
Kawasaki is not British.
- Greedo0
if the brits leave the EU, the germans will put half-hourly passport controls in place in every european vacation spot. might revive the english seaside towns, though.
- IRNlun60
Now it's getting personal.
Brexit would put Game of Thrones under threat
- robotron3k0
well... are you guys staying or going??
- Wolfboy0
From the Facebook of a guy called Matt Thomas:
friday's going to be amazing! i'm going to wake up in my Union Jack jim-jams to the sound of a squadron of Spitfires racing overhead and leaving a trail of hot buttered crumpets behind them
I'll run to the corner shop past all the british children who are laughing and squealing with excitement as they make a beautiful statue of the queen out of happy wriggling bulldog puppies - with two corgis for her eyebrows!
bunting flutters everywhere and the man from the betting shop steps into the street - "guess what! England just won the World Cup & The Ashes & The Grand National and here's the best bit - Boris put a bet on it for everyone! you're all MILLIONAIRES!!!"
the red arrows fly overhead dropping fish and chips as i walk into the corner shop, get my morning paper and go to the counter. "how much please?" i say to the asian lad there. "1 pence, everything in the whole shop now costs just 1p!" he laughs, "leave it on the counter, i'm off back to pakistan - we all are!"
and he's right! outside in the streets jolly old nigel farage is leading a huge crowd of happy foreigners - turks, poles, romanians, syrians - there's even a few English people with heavy suntans mixed up in there! nigel's playing Rule Britannia on a long pipe, rather like the pipe that takes the gas into your oven, and they're all following and smiling and talking foreign, bless them!
just then boris flies overhead in a concorde made of Bank of England gold - "don't worry!" he laughs "I've cut out all the bits the French made!" and with that he crashes into the ground at 1200 miles an hour, along with the economy, the country and all the dozy nostalgic foreigner-fearing fuckwits who fell for his bullshit.
grow up. wake up.
IN
- Ha!nb
- I suggest Matt Thomas take his own advice in his last lineset
- You think he should IN?nb
- <1-- this is the problem with the in campaign. im voting out and dont care about the overhyped immigration issue. if the eu wants a federal setup then they...trooperbill
- ...should have said so originally, not about setting up a trade zone and bringing in federalism in through a back door.trooperbill
- you feel the federalism in the back door?oey
- lowimpakt-1
- That great.wheelBoy
- Why should we?detritus
- Because humans want to move around the world?lowimpakt
- What about the humans already in those places - they not get a say in things?
A strange imbalance in 'natural' rights.detritus - I'd wager most humans don't 'want' to move around the world, but rather need to for work. ...detritus
- Perhaps instead consider balancing things and help them improve their home societies and not aggregate all humanity into a few increasingly-shit megacities?detritus
- uan2
100 good voting!
is it voluntary in the UK or do you have to go?
- voluntary for sure...weird thinking of me this morning.uan
- Yea if you don't vote they turn up at your door wielding axes and polling papersset
- Failure to participate in democracy means you get put onto a watch list and your movements / habits are monitored for deviant behavior.face_melter
- If you don't vote, you get a personally-written letter of thanks from Mr Cameron.detritus
