UK in/out Europe?
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- kingkong-2
My favourite article on the subject so far:
Any country other than a shambolic anarchy must have a government. That said, most governmental systems end with the five-letter “cracy” derived from the Greek for “rule”. There are about 10. We know about autocracy, rule by a single tyrant. There is theocracy, rule by the priestly caste, such as Iran.
Add stratocracy, rule by the army (Egypt) and plutocracy (by the very rich). We have seen gerontocracy, with the reins of power in the hands of the extremely old – the Soviet politburo in its last days. And aristocracy, rule by the nobles, long gone.
But two are with us and visible. One is bureaucracy, government by the officials, the constant competitor for power with rule by the “demos”: the people. Democracy. It is by far the hardest to establish.
It is the most fragile, the easiest to fake with rigged elections, meaningless ceremonies and elaborate charades. I estimate about 100 phoney democracies worldwide. But ours is parliamentary democracy so let’s give it a glance.
Of course it is indirect. We cannot expect the electorate to go to the polls for every tiny decision. So we divide the country into 650 constituencies with one MP for each. The party with the most MPs in Westminster governs for five years. At the pinnacle is the Cabinet and, with encircling junior ministers, forms the Government, which I will call the power.
But there is more. The power is held to account, not five-yearly, not annually or monthly but every day. Doing this is the official Opposition but also the backbench MPs even of the government party. This “holding to account” is vital. Assisting these critics is hopefully a free and unafraid press.
It is against this template that we can judge the system of the EU.
Just after the war a group of men, politicians, thinkers, intellectuals and theorists, formed around Frenchman Jean Monnet, became convinced that what they had witnessed at close quarters – the utter destruction of their continent in a vicious war – must never, ever, happen again. It was not a bad viewpoint, indeed it was a noble one.
They then analysed the problem and came up with two solutions. The first was that the various and disparate nations of Europe west of the Iron Curtain must somehow be unified into one under a single government. They accepted that this might take two, even three generations but must be done. This was not an ignoble vision.
It was their second conclusion to which I take exception. The whole group was mesmerised by one fact. In 1933 the Germans, seized by rabid nationalism, voted Adolf Hitler into power. Their conclusion: the people, any people, were too obtuse, too gullible, too dim ever to be safely entrusted with the power to elect their government.
People’s democracy was flawed and should never be permitted to decide government again if war was to be avoided. Real power would have to be confined to a non-elective body of enlightened minds like theirs.
They realised, those founders, that there would have to be façades erected to persuade the gullible that democracy had not been abolished in the new utopia. There is indeed a European Parliament – but with a difference.
In London it is the Commons that is the lawgiver, the Upper House is the vetting and endorsing chamber. In Brussels the EU Parliament has no lower house, it is the endorsing chamber. It ratifies what the real power, the non-elective European Commission, has decided.
The broad masses would also have to be convinced that the purpose of the Monnet utopia was economic and thus about prosperity. This untruth has prevailed to this day and is the main plank of the establishment propaganda in our present British decisionmaking.
In fact the final destination of the EU is entirely political. It is the complete political, legal and constitutional unification of the continent of Europe into a single entity: the State of Europe. This clearly cannot make war against itself, thus guaranteeing peace. Albeit without democracy.
It is amazing how many intelligent people have fallen for this fiction. Thus David Cameron can tell us with a straight face that he repudiates the three pillars of the EU – the doctrine of even closer union, a single external border but no internal ones (Schengen) and a single currency (eurozone) – but still thinks we will sit at the top table. He believes the EU is about trade and tariffs. No, that’s what we thought we joined.
....under Heath we joined the Common Market. As a trading nation for centuries we were delighted to do so. Then the lies began. It would never go further, we were told. The Six became the Nine but all in western Europe.
Heath lied to us. He said there would never be any question of “transfer of significant sovereignty”. He had read the whole Treaty of Rome. No one else had. He knew this was just the tip of the iceberg.
Then in 1992 came the Maastricht Treaty. We were told it was just tidying up loose ends. More lies. It was transformational. It created the European Union. Slowly, decree by decree, rule by rule, law by law, our ancient right to govern ourselves the way we wanted to be governed and by whom was transferred from London to Brussels. Today 60 per cent of all laws are framed in Brussels, not London.
The lies multiplied. The entire establishment, much espoused of power without accountability, has become hugely enamoured of the new governmental system. Less and less need to consult those wretched people, the voters.
It is no coincidence that the five professions that worship power – politicians, bureaucrats, diplomats, quangocrats and lawyers, plus the two that lust for money, bankers/ financiers and tycoons – today constitute almost the whole of the stay-in campaign. Almost to a man.
And the lies proliferate. “There is no intention to proceed to a superstate.” Really? Read the Treaty of Rome. That is the whole point of the EU. What is not said is that in a unified continent there can be no place for the independent, autonomous, self-governing sovereign nation/state.
The two are a contradiction in terms. Only here in the UK is that denied. In Brussels it is accepted as wholly obvious. “The end of nation” is regarded as a work in progress. Endgame is foreseen as a decade, maybe two.
The referendum decision of June 23 will be the last ever, the decision permanent. So this is your choice. This is about the country in which we will spend the rest of our lives, the land we will pass on to our children and grandchildren.
What kind of a country, what kind of a governmental system? People’s democracy or officialdom’s empire? Our right to hold power to account or just two duties: to pay and obey? For me it is simple and takes just five words:
I want my country back.
- @kingkong - where is this from - very eloquent for a Leave campaigner!Gordy22
- that would be my favourite too if I was voting to leave.Fax_Benson
- wereFax_Benson
- mekk-4
Well have fun outside, EU doesn't need your shitty economy anyways. Have fun alone on your Island livin' from ISIS sheik and Russian Oligarchy Real estate taxes, if they pay them. Really, have fun with them. Alone.
But don't you dare to come back when your small bakeries, farmers and small people riot because you don't have the EU money anymore to support them.
- mekk0
And you know what, fuck you too for wanting a Brexit but still want the benefits of the EU. Well fuck you right in your stupid pale bumhole.
- hahaFax_Benson
- the perks of having to subsidies the lazy French and Greeks LOLDillinger
- I dont think the liberal lefties have the balls to be independent. The free shit army will vote remainDillinger
- Proper production standards? Naaah, cmon. Free trade within europe? Ah, lets keep that, ok? Dicks.mekk
- You do realise that Britain was at the forefront of that soprt of thing, since well before the EU? https://en.wikipedia…detritus
- and, re: Free trade - that's all we ever wanted from the EU. That's all that was ever sold to us - everything else is an undemocratic project to keep ...detritus
- ...you and the French from trying to annihilate each other again. You do realise that some of the strongest anti-EU rhetoric over the years stems from Germany?detritus
- You do realise the two biggest voices against the Euro were the Bank of England and... the Bundesbank?detritus
- Euro != EUmekk
- Really? Monetary union has nothing to do with the EU project? Huh. Why's it breaking down financially then? Why is the South broke whilst Germany prospers?detritus
- because the south is piss poor and has no economic, even if they pay in walnuts.mekk
- Oh dear. I don't even know where to begin.detritus
- detritus0
I'm guessing you're trying to be amusing or humourous, mekk - if so, perhaps you'll want us to stay in Europe, because that those two witless gurgitations were about as funny as dogshit on my shoe. As far as I'm aware, the one thing us Island Monkeys are liked for over in Germany is our sense of humour, for better or worse.
If you are being serious, perhaps it's that sort of snooty arrogance that people in Britain react to and want no part of? I know that it's riled me and I'm very pro-Europe, if not particularly pro-EU.
Whatever - your country needs the EU a lot more than the UK needs the EU, so enjoy ... I guess? Sounds like we're not wanted beyond being a customer for your agglomerated industries, so I'm sure we'll happily add on tariffs to reduce the benefit to you. I'm sure there are a few other countries in the EU who'd love to do the same...
- I was a bit serious but yes, I want UK to stay. EU invested Billions, why should you even be able to just opt out and take the money with you?mekk
- The 'EU' invested billions? Pray tell, who or what are the EU and where did they get their money from?detritus
- you're not doing a great job of convincing people to stay, mekkFax_Benson
- the 3rd world war begins with this thread. Ironically the sides are similar to 1st and 2nd wars. Germany is against all, Russia might be on their side, US willBeeswax
- decide later on to get involved or not. And I will be eating my popcorn on the shores of Aegean.Beeswax
- @Fax_Benson, convincing people over political stuff on the internet is pretty much impossible, so I don't even try. Everyone has his own truth and nothing else.mekk
- Your posts really were about as funny as contracting HIV.set
- ^ Is it the jews again?mekk
- You Germans just can't let the war and what you did in it go, can you?
(that was a joke, btw)detritus
- mekk0
The thing is, what do you get when you leave? Everyone shouting for it is people like Dyson, who only see their own benefit because they would not be forced to take their products to proper tests. It's like an UK Trump.
You want freedom but you're just changing your master to an even worse one with this vote. Sure, EU is corrupted, sure Germany might have a word too much everywhere, sure you might disagree with the handling of the refugee crysis.
But are you really willing to give up your political power, a power that grants citizens so much power that they can vote out of the EU, are you willing to hand this power to some companies and their leaders all from one political, highly conservative direction?
- fadein111
"A good friend of mine came up with a great idea. If you don't have the time/inclination to find out all the facts about the EU referendum (I don't blame you) and are possibly unsure which way to vote, perhaps knowing how other notable people are thinking could help out.
Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:
• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECDHere are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:
• Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
• That idiot that was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
• Leader of UKIP
• BNP
• Britain First
• Donald Trump
• Keith Chegwin
• David IckeSo, as I said, if you can’t be bothered to look into the real facts and implications of all this in/out stuff, just pick the list that you most trust and vote that way. It really couldn’t be more simple.
And if you are unsure about leaving, don't."
- Thank Fuck the Prime Minister of Japan thinks we should stay in the EU - PHEW!detritus
- Also, on principal I'd argue against whatever it is the IMF thinks is in 'our' best interest, because it sure as hell isn't.detritus
- it'd be a wonder if the world's politicans didn't think in favour, elsewise it'd be a fairly damning indictment against their raison d'etredetritus
- ^ that was Feench, btw - I'm trés Ooroh.detritus
- < your friend sounds like a wankerkilroii
- lol detritus, yeah pick one voice out of thousands you don't like and have your opinion confirmed ^^ http://gifsec.com/wp…mekk
- http://gifsec.com/wp…mekk
- add Putin to the leave the EU part.sted
- aka. "When German literalism and British self-deprecating humour collide"detritus
- Stephen Fucking Hawking again? Fuck that, I'm out.Ianbolton
- fyi - one of the biggest backers of the IMF, and a founding member, is Britain. Their shit is a supra-EU level of Hell No.detritus
- @detritus - if you know how you want to vote do it... this is aimed at those who cannot be arsed to do any research.fadein11
- @kilroii - it's a quote from something I saw - not my friend (hence the quote marks).fadein11
- I'm sorry - I'm not allowed to comment here? My apologies. Must be one of those secretly-decided EU diktats no one knows about until too late...detritus
- Is Feence in the EU?set
- Of course you can comment! But you have clearly made your mind up - this post was aimed at those who haven't.fadein11
- Imagine the thought. People who would be persuaded and vote based on seeing this post.
I'm moving to Feence.set - Oh? how clearly have I made my mind up? I'll actually be voting stay, begrudgingly, but that's not to say there aren't huge reasons for questioning 'Why?'.detritus
- Isn't this pretty much the definition of an ad hominem argument?yuekit
- @detritus - why all the hostility and anger. I know you are voting remain - you made that clear y'day! calm downfadein11
- I am doing the same begrudgingly (as in I am aware of the problems with the EU but I also know the alternative with Boris as PM is horrific).fadein11
- You said this yesterday too - WHERE is my hostility or anger?! Just because I'm answering literally and not adding smileys, doesn't mean I'm somehow enraged.detritus
- ok fair enough - so used to dealing with 2 crazy people on here ha I lumped you in with them ha (joke)... my apologies.fadein11
- —@:D xxxdetritus
- You totally come across as defensive and offended. But my opinion doesn't count because I view everything in terms of personal offence. Lol that.set
- kalkal0
So I regestered online on the 3rd. Where's my friggen card?
- mekk2
I assume most of us are
financially stable
our food does not poison us (or can choose to eat poisonous)
can travel mostly anywhere in the world without a big deal
can get a credit
drive a car of choice
believe what we think is the one to believe in
or choose not to believe
etc etcWhy you want to risk all that? Because of some few stupid decisions that make your life oh so worse like an economical light bulb? Is that the threat of your life? Then better leave the EU as a person, not as a country.
- People who claim to be 'slaves' of banks etc. mostly do it because they have bought stuff on credit and made themselves slaves.mekk
- I couldn't do all this before 1992? Huh. My folks have lived in Spain since 1987.detritus
- but you're not going back to 1992, you're going full capitalism without regulation.mekk
- You'll see when there are a few rich people left drowning in money and the middle class is completely cut away, replaced by poverty and 12 hour workdays.mekk
- Lit with regular light bulbs, powered by nuclear plants. Great Success.mekk
- detritus0
Germany's nuclear policy was and is massively wrong-headed and has only really led to a drop in investment and therefore a stagnation of development between old Gen II reactors and what we really should be running by now (Gen IV+).
This isn't massively critical now as we can load balance electricity against the hydrocarbons that we need for (and this is the important bit) mass transportation.
Germany's efforts to transition to green energy are laudable, but misguided. There is currently no replacement for hydrocarbons and transit, and the only way we can power an entire country's worth of cars and trucks by electricity is ... if we go nuclear.
There is physically and literally no alternative, and there likely won't be for 50 years, or without colonialising (either de facto or economical) North Africa.
Probably why your own country is (like many other countries) still farting around with Fusion.
Where incandescents are concerned, well that's pretty stupid statement in an of itself (India, for example, is rolling out mass-subsidisation for LED bulbs because, hey - less power stations), but furthermore.. http://news.mit.edu/2016/nanopho…
Given your diatribes here, I'm amazed that Britain ever managed to exist as an independent entity in the hundreds of years before EU membership - gosh knows what all those Victorian social values were, eh?
- You seem genuinely offended. No idea how you managed to take mekk's comments personally. Is Britain your downs syndrome brother or something?set
- I tried so hard not to post that. I don't want another setritus argument. Feel free to ignore me.set
- Fucking Setritus. Best thing I've come up with in years.set
- You prefer to view things in fairly polarised terms of personal offence, don't you set? Seems like a thread where you're concerned.detritus
- I'm simply trying to counter his points, with a bit of wryness where I can here and there. Nothing personal at all.detritus
- "You prefer to view things in fairly polarised terms of personal offence"
lol setritus of the dayset - Well, to be fair, I am sniffing at the hints of Germanic self-righteousness, but that's all fair in love and OHMYGOD DON'T MENTION THE WARdetritus
- PeterPancake1
Can't wait for Brexit rations to kick-off June 24th.
- deathboy1
typically I don't give a shit about europe, because of george, but hope this has no effect on my vacation there in a couple weeks
- are you going to britain? are you a syrian refugee?lowimpakt
- yes. no. hopefully exchange rates wont get shit on and nothin happens like the scot deal a bit back. would a collapse of the euro shoot the pound up or down?deathboy
- hard to say. pound may weaken benefitting you but not good for British people.lowimpakt
- Farage said “If sterling were to fall a few percentage points after Brexit, so what"" but he's a dicklowimpakt
- hmm. ill have to look up some of this stuff. i regularly go to the bbc.co.uk but all i get is trump nonsense. missed this brexit except for here.deathboy
- chrisRG3
It's hard to believe that people listen to Nigel Farage in the 21st century.
- Absolute moron.fadein11
- they don't. It's late 19th century forever in Farageland.Fax_Benson
- farage and his ilk are the only things stopping me voting out...hans_glib
- that is the point, like it or not he is the voice of the Leave Campaign. Voting Leave is voting UKP.chrisRG
- Smug middle englanders and stupid racists might sway a Brexit. Voting out for rule Britannia and good ol' xenophobia. Sad.monoboy
- If the Remain campaign wins, Farage is going to have a really ugly, really public fit/meltdown. I'd give anything to punch him in the back of the fucking head.Continuity
- ^ yep and lol.fadein11
- couldn't agree more. that's supposed to had happened after last election, he even resigned from UKIP, and suddenly got back.chrisRG
- There was a controversy years ago, at the end of Québec's last in/out referendum, wherein the then-premier of the province blamed the loss of the Out vote on...Continuity
- ... the province's immigrant population. Caused a real stir. This is exactly what Farage will do, too.Continuity
- Forced immigrant quotas by an unelected bureaucracy, under the threat of economic sanctions does not seem to be in any countries best interest.IRNlun6
- pfft, what's quarter of a million people a year for a vast country like the UK with a nominal native popula... oh, hold on.detritus
- It interesting to see where real problems need addressing in europe especially on an economic level are considered xenophobic so not to talk about it.yurimon
- He's such a grinning cunt and just all round jizz guzzler you wanna punch him with a knife again and again.necromation
- yurimon - Farage supporter.fadein11
- IRNlun60
5th largest economy in the world can't govern on it's own? Looks like both camps are caught up in the personalities who support/reject this but this decision affects Britons futures well beyond current leadership. A decision that will not be so easy to turn back from if things don't work out as promised.
- It's less about the personalities and more about the impossible task of extracting truth from propganda.Morning_star
- There is the history of at one point being the worlds most powerful nation, and a leader in trade, ethics and human rights.IRNlun6
- What do they stand to gain from a centralized bureaucracy that won't be beholden to member countries citizens?IRNlun6
- Empire. Not the most positive era in our history.Morning_star
- True, but does show your country is more than capable of ruling on its own. There is much for your country to take pride in.IRNlun6
- Yes, but I think we realised that conquering countries and then exploiting their resources was ultimately unsustainable. At some point the locals would...Morning_star
- ...get a bit stroppy and take back what was theirs and we didn't have the military might to do that in so many countries.Morning_star
- lol @ leader in human rights - empire days were as bad as it could be.fadein11
- I can understand the sense of self loathing if you're only looking at history through the prism of empire days. A trait many Americans seem to embrace as well.IRNlun6
- detritus0
It's a shame that questioning net migration numbers of 250k+ per year to a country like the UK instantly equates to Oh My God You're Racist in so many people's eyes these days.
The rest of the world looks at Europe and wonders just what the fuck she's doing to herself, shrugs, moves on because hey - it's to their benefit if we implode. Sort of like how it's only really in the interest of the top social tiers to encourage and maintain high migration - because it isn't massively for anyone else here.
- yep. an in / out referendum is probably the least useful means of discussing immigration sensibly.Fax_Benson
- 1.2 million Brits live in other EU countries.
A huge proportion of that 250K (which is in reality closer to 180K) are students. Don't get dragged into thefadein11 - nonsense spin by right wing brexiters. Approx 40% of that figure are students by the way.fadein11
- I'm not dragged into anything - i'm an emigrant going out with an immigrant and have been an on/off donator to MigrationWatch since about 2003.detritus
- Nothing against migration per se, i do earnestly question the quantities though, and 'cui bono'.detritus
- Yep - my figures were from them. 40% of students should not be included in these figures imho.fadein11
- SlashPeckham0
Here's a Facebook Ad I saw last night - people on both sides of the argument should be upset by what the see here:
https://www.facebook.com/leaveeu…
- detritus1
"In order to bring you a more informed commentary on Britain's EU referendum, this week's issue of The Economist, dated June 25th 2016, may be slightly delayed. We will do our utmost to ensure your print copy is delivered on Saturday, but a small number of subscriber copies may be delivered on Monday morning.
The Economist is convinced that a decision to leave would be bad for Britain, Europe and the world. But we also believe in the importance of objective analysis and reasoned argument. To help you get the facts on the vote, we've curated a collection of articles on Britain and Europe, which you can access below. Inside you'll also find a link to download our full Brexit handbook. And remember, you can always join the conversation via our social channels."
The Economist. On a Monday?!
THIS MADNESS MUST END.
- lowimpakt1
the issue with migration is obviously complex.
the 2015 net figure of 333,000 is a record high and actually dropped at the start of 2016.
This "net migration" figures occured while immigration didn't increase significantly. The net was high because there was a drop in emigration.
Obviously other complexities arise with the breakdown. E.g. some are EU (roughly 180,000 of the 330,000 were EU citizens) some are students, returning ex pats, some are EU and some are non EU.
Pricks like Farage say the UK has no control of its borders. This is not entirely true because EU citizens fall under EU rules whereas the UK has a higher level of self control over non-EU citizens.
- around 40% are students.fadein11
- 40%? rly?
"london is the third largest city of hungary" as we used to say :)sted - That's true. I have to get Schengen Visa to travel in Europe but UK has its' separate visa application system. So a Greek visa will let me in Holland but not UKBeeswax
- Although isn't Farages' point that if UK decides to remain that they will have to abide by EU immigration quotas?IRNlun6
- there's no quota. Farage is presenting an image on non-EU migrants and claiming these are governed by the same rules as EU citizens. lies and propagandalowimpakt
- unless you are talking about refugee quota? which is a separate issue than regular migrationlowimpakt
- the international rules that govern treatment of refugees are above the EU. UK pledged to take 20,000 syrians fleeing warlowimpakt
- Ah ok, I thought it was the EU that set refugee quota. Will refugees be granted citizenship in their host countries?IRNlun6
- I'm reading that the EU does have a refugee quota, but Britain is exempt. What a complete cluster fuck this refugee crisis is to the EU...IRNlun6
- The UK has lots of exceptions. on refugee status, the UK is exempt from EU rule on permanently resident refugee. here's uk approach https://www.gov.uk/s…lowimpakt
- it's also not straightforward to get oneself classified as a refugeelowimpakt
- sorry, here's link to UK rules i.e.e not citizenship https://www.gov.uk/s…lowimpakt
- thanks lowimpaktIRNlun6
- nb0
Sounds like a lot of people in the UK need a little of the ol' European in-and-out.
- people in the UK are sound but need more honest politicians and medialowimpakt
- ^ joke-killer.nb
- sorry, i'm in london at the minute. no humour or joy allowed here.lowimpakt
- When are you guys going to have full Sharia law there? I understand the Mayors wife wears a burqa once he got elected...robotron3k