UK in/out Europe?
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- lowimpakt0
"- We give more that we get back"
This is not entirely true. The benefit to the UK isn't direct payments (e.g. CAP) but it is through the trade UK business does with the rest of Europe.
The CBI suggest that the net benefit to the UK is in the region of 4-5% http://news.cbi.org.uk/campaigns…
What the UK should be doing instead is campaigning to ensure that net benefit of 4-5% actually benefits the people of the UK and doesn't just line profits of the already rich.
As far as I can see, the rabble that are campaigning to leave are mostly older men who have proven themselves to dispicable and untrustworthy. Someone also pointed out that they all happen to be climate change deniers
- To be fair to monoboy, he was just listing that amongst the tired tropes of the antiEu brigade, not proferring it as his own concern.detritus
- he made that clear enough. It gets used a lot by the press and I just think it's wronglowimpakt
- Oh, ok - sorry, I guess I thought you didn't think it clear, elsewise I might've expected you to counter the other points.
I presume you agree with them, then?detritus - My point too lowimpackt. More of the same from the press.monoboy
- @detritus - no, i suspect based on the evidence i've read that UK get a net economic benefit. The leave campaign is ideological imolowimpakt
- would trade with europe really suffer that much if we were out? wouldnt there be more opportunity to trade internationally?trooperbill
- monNom0
The house is on fire. do you:
A) stay inside, splashing water from the sink
B) leave and get a safe distance away from the MOUNTAIN OF FLAMES- Nah. There's a broken window and the grass needs cutting but apart from that the house is fine.Morning_star
- and the neighbors keep leaning iover the fence and interfearing with your lifetrooperbill
- The neighbours house is on fire. Help to put it out before your house goes up to!HAYZ1LLLA
- Chimp0
I get the whole sovereignty issue but I trust Europe a lot more than the past few UK governments.
Once we're out there will be no stopping them "redefining" human rights etc.
It won't do much for immigration as the current establishment love all the cheap labour coming in. Leaving Europe won't stop it.
- the fac the eu gov moves between 2 buildings in the same week is worryingtrooperbill
- monoboy1
The OUTERS keep citing the EU freedom of movement policy as the central issue because it 'leaves the door wide open to economic migrants who come here to languish on benefits'.
The very same migrants that come here to steal our jobs?
Dog whistle politics at it's worst.
And they keep shoehorning non EU migration from Syria and Afghanistan into the same debate. Completely different issue but it's a vote winner.
Sadly for many in the UK, it's OK to bomb Syria but it's not OK to give their civilians refuge. It's nuts.
- Most of the immigrants the Outers don't like are not from Europe and leaving Europe won't effect it.Chimp
- lowimpakt0
"Unemployed Britons in richer EU states outnumber claimants from those countries in UK"
- sted0
Just one thought, and it's not about movement of labor:
Currently the Hungarian government is specialized to get the most out of the EU subsidies.Overpaid instruments in tenders are common, but we have some really disgusting things going on around here like never opening swimming pool, football stadium in EVERY FUCKING CITY , and creating foundations to absorb grants in every possible way. And these are just the big players.
Without these funds Hungary would be in an economic and financial crisis.It's embarrassing for me to pay attention to what is happening in the UK. Because I know my country's leaders are part of this outcry. Britain is the third-biggest net contributor to the budget, but they can not raise their voice against this type of theft.
- kingkong0
The main question is what is 'the EU' and where is it going? (great info graphic in the feed btw)
definitions.
1. A geographical area that has created a trading block to make trade easier and to protect the economies within the trading block.
2. A geographical area that is the above with the economic instruments to manage the supply and demand of labour and markets - free movement of people etc.
3. A political union with shared government apparatus as well as the above.
4. The above with a shared judicial layer, to harmonise laws and values across said 'block'
5. A united states of Europe. Central Government, regional authority.
When we last voted (1975) we voted for No1 - We are now between 4 or 5.
As a committed European, I just can't stand this faceless army of eurocrats that are pretty unaccountable.
There was a great quote on Question Time last week in the UK. "The sovereignty of this nation is not the politicians of this country to give away - but to protect".
To many politicians act like it's their to give away.
I honestly think, you are either in big for it or your not.
Like 70% in - in a referendum it should be 65/70% to change the constitution of a country.
When the Scottish referendum happened a lot of people said it was crazy to allow 51% to win.
Insanity. It should be a collective will. a Movement of the majority people.
This is all going down party lines. the result will be 50 something vs 50 something.
shouldn't change a direction of a people over a few % points.
Which gets me to another point.
The other issue that ERKS is that the argument for staying in is that The Eu is a 'good' force. A Socialist, egalitarian, progressive movement against the forces of capitalism and self-interest.
Bollox.
People think that this is about some home county tories vs. the urban left.
It isn't
the people that have lost the most from the EU are the working classes of Europe.
Never before in modern history have we had unemployment like we have now.
Never before has a policy (freedom of movement) done so much to compress wage inflation.
It's the very fucking capitalists many here despise that have benefited the most out of this current arrangement.
There are no human rights that the EU have that are better than the Magna Carta.
The EU has not invented Google, etc or innovated in any area of industry whatsoever.
It is a stifling, muddling bunch of unequal countries trying to make it work.
It's fucked.
Anyone, anyone who thinks the EU is a good thing - go talk to a Greek - The way they dealt with a sovereign nation was so disgraceful - in many ways worse that Putin.
IT, the EU, hates free enterprise, and capitalism - but equally it hates the left, the socialist.
It's a technocratic lobby group that creates nothing, improves nothing and hasn't turned the world most economically productive area into something bigger than the sum of its parts.
GET THE FUCK OUT.
rant out.
- maybe the ballot paper will have the question 'what is the EU and where is it going?' - with a spare page for your notes.Fax_Benson
- * it won't.
it's in or outFax_Benson - DO THE HOKEY-COKEY!detritus
- Yeh thanks for that ;) - out for mekingkong
- no worries - glad to help. I'm off to straighten out the US election thread.Fax_Benson
- what shared judicial layer lol.
our government laughs how the eu is trying to execute regulations against corruption, one-sided media, and
eastern influence.sted - Greece lied to the EU about budget deficits on various occasions leading up to their crashlowimpakt
- Hope u support nigel farageHayoth
- detritus0
Any loss by the working classes has been to the world's economy, not the EU's. What hope do you have for our workers if their voice is but a fart in the dark?
Change from within, brother.
- detritus0
ps. we have nukes.
REMEMBER DUNKIRK
1944 FTW
XX BOM!
.
We'll need the Germans to pay for our nukes.
- kingkong0
Remember Greece and the Ukraine before you remember zee Germans.
- we're not voting on whether we think the Greeks got dicked on. Or any of that other stuff.Fax_Benson
- No but we are voting to be a pet of the club where faceless central bankers and politicians did that.kingkong
- MrT0
I'm with the stays but it's not black and white. And as is often the case, The Economist's takes on it are pretty compelling.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/g…
- PeterPancake0
IN:
OUT:
- trooperbill-1
IN guy on the radio asked "what will the OUT campaign deliver" . even i know that you dont know until you're in a position to do something about it so at the moment their answer would probably be "we dont know yet"
- same for the in vote - whats going to happen in the future? turkey? collapse of greece? who knows.trooperbill
- Ianbolton0
Financially, I still have serious reservations about the EU.
- Fax_Benson0
I'm getting seriously worried now.
If we leave, Cameron and Osborne are gone. I can't see anyone from the remain side winning a leadership battle, which means Boris as the unelected Prime Minister overseeing the biggest political upheaval in centuries.
The potential make-up of his new cabinet is genuinely terrifying.(possibly a few UKIP defectors in there too).
With no moderate tories in government positions, Labour a shambles, and no EU - the only opposition to the government (other than their own tiny majority in the commons) will be the house of fucking lords.
- Boris Johnson as PM will solve any immigration issues - half the country will leave.fadein11
- Cameron is gone, whatever the outcome - the vultures have been circling since, well, forever. Wheels in motion, plans within plans.face_melter
- Boris the Bearoey
- I don't think people realise what they're giving away and who they're giving it to.Fax_Benson
- exactly faxoey
- the hous of lords as the only opposition...oh dear!oey
- yep fax - the shit media is to blame as well. getting scary now - leave campaign ahead in the polls. people do not realise the consequences of handing powerfadein11
- to Boris etc. Getting worried.fadein11
- Cameron is a limp biscuit plum faced twit but my God, I'd rather have him than Boris. Just so strange and surreal - Boris and Trump on the cusp of big power.fadein11
- oey2
why opt out? seriously...
- chrisRG1
Things are not looking good.
In the end, Leave campaign is all about immigration.
I am an EU citizen living in the UK. It's sad to hear most UK right wingers blaming immigration for every issue they have and ignoring any fact showing the opposite.
- yep - it's horrific. getting v.scared of outcome now.fadein11
- Aye, I'm a UK citizen living in Sweden and to hear Little Englander arsepieces go on about immigration in terms of pure hyperbole boils my piss.face_melter
- But if Leave does win, I have been living here long enough to apply for citizenship - so hej då, fuckfaces.face_melter
- sovereignty trumps immigrationtrooperbill
- Fax_Benson1
- unbelievablefadein11
- it's almost as though he's using the referendum to further his own political career.Fax_Benson
- yes he did say it... jesus
http://www.telegraph…fadein11 - Johnson should be destroyed. A genuinely terrible human being.face_melter
- is that really how he wears his hair?monNom
- trump's hair without the hair spraydrgs
- set2
It astounds me that people actually believe they'd allow a decision like this to be made by the public.
I mean really.
- I know what you mean but God do we want people like Boris making it also.
It's all a load of bollocks - no reason to leave. Just Boris on a power trip.fadein11 - Quite obviously a decision has already been made. Fake democracy. Theatre show.set
- Like Boris or anyone else in the public eye has any say either.set
- so you think the decision has been made by those in the shadows pulling the strings? what do you reckon the outcome will be?fadein11
- genuine question by the way!fadein11
- True, camerons dad said the referendum isnt legallly binding so it can be blocked and watered down after the fact. plus they get 2 years of butchering the counttrooperbill
- @fadein yes, that's exactly what I think.sadly I think they've planned for a long time to leave. I'd vote stay but voting is clearly utter theatre bollocks.set
- yep I think it will be a brexit purely through the media spin though. those pulling the strings are surely totally for centralised gov'tfadein11
- I know what you mean but God do we want people like Boris making it also.
- Ianbolton0
My parents are under the apprehension that leaving would 'cure' our spiralling immigration problems. I hate this constant rhetoric claiming people are coming over here taking all our jobs, when in reality we're not even doing the jobs ourselves because we're spoilt little bastards. We're so wrapped up in our own self-importance that we fail to recognised that we're actually just an average country of mindless human beings trying to make things work, like every country. Apparently there's talk of if we leave, France and Italy may do the same. The EU does seem like it's governed by Germany with a currency which doesn't suit every nation. The way Greece was treated kind of sums up a lot of the reasons why I questions our involvement, but then I agree, we're all better together. But then, who made that post about collaboration being a load of bullshit? Can't we be the maverick country leading the way, like we constantly dream of being? I guess not!
It's not a straightforward YES/NO like people think, and I still believe 70% of the people in this country have no fucking clue what they're even voting for!
- exactly. and the figures on immigration speak volumes - it massively benefits the economy but you will never read that in the Murdoch press.fadein11
- You're able to state that last paragraph and still believe the vote makes any difference? Come on now.set
- we need immigration - but uncontrolled imigration is not a good idea. lets pick who we want in the country.trooperbill
- Set, I'm feeling as disenfranchised as the rest of the country, although I understand the issues, I have no interest in trusting a Conservative governmentIanbolton