UK in/out Europe?
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- trooperbill
call me stupid but the IN campaign has yet to give a compelling reason to stay n #iwanttobelieve
- Ianbolton0
I'd guess at least 80% of the people here in the UK have no idea what they're voting for in regards to being in or out. They'll probably see 'OUT: stricter immigration control' and think yeah, that's what I want in my life.
It would be interesting to see a poll relating to whether people in the UK are more or less politically aware considering we're being asked to vote for something that's rather confusing.
- Of course we're not politically aware! But we do know what colour of underwear Kim Kardashian is wearing today - the newslepers tell us!microkorg
- What media are you following?MultiUserTroll
- Various: RT News, BBC, Guardian, Independent, New Statesman, The Economist, New Scientist, Wired and Hello for KK underwearIanbolton
- I was missing KK underwear and some of the others from my relevant news feeds. Thanks for sharing!MultiUserTroll
- microkorg2
The most compelling reason for the UK to stay in Europe is a quote I read by Rupert Murdoch.
He was saying that if he asks the UK government to do something they'll kiss his ass and do it. When he goes to the European Union they don't bat an eyelid and don't listen to what he's saying.
Do we want a small-country government that can be bought out by the biggest bidders?
- so why have local governments and why do other countries get to ignore the rules without penalty?trooperbill
- Fax_Benson-1
Have you heard compelling arguments for leaving?
- The EU is doomed. It will die a slow death.MultiUserTroll
- Exhibit A: TAFTAMultiUserTroll
- ˆgonzalle
- Fax_Benson2
This isn't a referendum on EU competency, it's a referendum on whether the UK should leave it forever. The onus is on the OUT campaign to explain what happens next and how.
*obviously the IN campaign will need to push the benefits of remaining, too. Neither side has made a very good start.
- yep.fadein11
- in seems to be based on wild unfounded claims and scare tactics tho?trooperbill
- detritus0
Call me stupid but the OUT campaign has yet to give a compelling reason to leave #idontwanttoleave
- chrisRG0
there is so much to answer, from both sides, even immigration wise, what happens to Britts living/working on EU countries? what happens to EU citizens (like myself) living here?
What happens to trading and financial services? IMHO, this seems like a big dropback on leaving EU
- The Out campaign is a clusterfuck of real politik obliviousness. If we vote 'Out' we will definitely be 'OUT' and very-much charged as such.detritus
- detritus5
I was brought up in Spain and currently live in London with an Italian for a partner. If we vote Out I'm at best moving to Edinburgh (unlikely, it's too cold for 'er indoors) or more-likely moving to Spain or Italy, before I'm disallowed.
I'll be fucked if I'm staying in this soon-to-be squalid backwater of parochial self-interest and navel-gazing post-post-Empire self-delusion.
.
Much better to stay in, stay relevant and stay invested in a fraternal socio-cultural collective whose future course we can be part of and help guide.
- +1MultiUserTroll
- Move to holland! Nice hot summers and mild winters!sureshot
- fuck the ozone layer!sureshot
- Come to Basque Country, you'll not regret ;)OBBTKN
- I'd love to, OBBTKN! I suspect she'd rather the Barcelona-end though, annoyingly...detritus
- +1chrisRG
- The EU is a scam run by Brussels civil servants. They dont give a shit about you.Dillinger
- bleh, all politics is a scam. That's about redundant and worthless an opinion as there is.detritus
- You think UKIP or the Tories have the Great Populace's best considerations at heart?detritus
- Vuelve a España!Chimp
- Morning_star1
On balance I think, as a country, we are in a stronger position if we stay as part of Europe.
There are some negatives, many positive but it's lost amongst fear-mongering from both the IN and OUT campaigns.
If you care about the result, do yourself a favour and look beneath the headlines.
- microkorg3
So my prediction is that UK votes OUT. Trump gets voted IN to the US. Our greedy UK politicians sell the UK to Trump for their own financial gain and UK is turned into a military base and leisure facility for US troops on their way to fight Russia or China in WWIII.
- Best doomsday scenario. I'm prepared from all the games that I played throughout my life.Beeswax
- kingkong0
I run a company based in London, all my clients are European - none are UK based entities.
I've spoke to all of them and it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to them.
I employ over 30 people and I am a Northerner, English, British, European - in that order.
So I like Europe, culturally I see myself as European - but personally I think I would vote to leave - but based on the ultimate destination of a federalised Europe that no one voted for. For me it's not about money but about sovereignty.
This article kind of cemented this for me: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comme…
On the financial bit - In the end, I suspect that most global corporations see us a bit like Switzerland anyway, with secretive, flexible banking laws with convenient islands for embezzlement - and would love it if we left.
- vote out and there's no going back. stay in and you've always got the option of a referendum should the right's paranoia of a superstate become more than a mythFax_Benson
- That's exactly it - most other European countries don't want to become part of a Franco-German headed ZooperZtate either.detritus
- kingkong0
I like this point particularly.
As Roy Jenkins shrewdly put it in 1999, there have only ever been “two coherent British attitudes to Europe”. Either we should wholeheartedly embrace what it was always intended to be, ever since Monnet set it in train six decades ago. Or we should negotiate a “reasonably amicable withdrawal”. Otherwise we are doomed to remain just a “foot-dragging, constantly complaining member” of something most of us instinctively distrust and dislike.
Britain will never want to be in a federalised Europe.
- I'm a Torygraph subscriber*, but I'd take eveything I read in there re: EU membership with a hearty dose of Salt.
* it was on offer, ok?detritus - I think the facts are pretty undeniable in that article D.kingkong
- The article has 9 points of political bullshittery, sure - some British politician's blame, some not. So what?
What's NOT being told here?detritus
- I'm a Torygraph subscriber*, but I'd take eveything I read in there re: EU membership with a hearty dose of Salt.
- Ianbolton0
Yanis Varoufakis called on Brits to vote strategically on June 23, the date of Britain’s ‘In/Out’ EU referendum.
“Neither withdrawing into the safe cocoon of the nation state, nor giving in to the disintegrating and anti-democratic EU, represent good options for Britain,” he said.
“So instead of seeing the referendum as a vote between these two options, and these two options alone, the UK needs a third option: to vote to stay in the European Union so that it can fight tooth and nail against the EU’s anti-democratic institutions.”
Full story: https://www.rt.com/uk/333960-yan…
- Fax_Benson0
that Telegraph piece sums up the OUTers - ideological opposition to the idea of it,...and literally nothing in it re what's actually best for the UK (or anyone else) in practical terms. Nothing concrete on how it'll be better out of it, just bitching about the terms under which we were sold it.
- For a lot of people, the mis-selling is the issue.kingkong
- Personally I'm livid at the shit that Blair et al tried to pull, but I'm not sure that's the same argument?detritus
- is it better now? it doesnt feellike ittrooperbill
- monoboy0
I don't think there's much chance of a sensible debate on it.
I'd expect to hear a lot more of the same from the British press...
- We give more that we get back
- We're awash with work shy immigrants
- It's pointless bureaucracy that only gives us straight vegetables
- Rule Britannia, we've got loads of money
- Faceless EU politicians taking away UK sovereigntyOne of the reasons UK right wingers want OUT is because it imposes what they see as socialist policy on them; workers rights.
Yet paradoxically, the main reason a lot of people want to stay IN is the advantage it gives to big business and the free movement of money.
Sadly, it'll all come down to how many jack waving Xenophobic middle Englanders turn out and vote.
If we do get an OUT and the economy goes into recession again, it could spell the end of the global economy. It'll be drawbridges up and every man for himself once governments start destabilising each others currency.
What I find fascinating is the rhetoric of the OUT campaign. It's exactly the same as the 'Yes' campaign during the referendum. A point of view they so fiercely opposed only two years ago.
- - We give more than we get backmonoboy
- < thischrisRG
- you have to admit tho that having a welfare state that can be abused by the eu population at large is pretty worrying tho for the uk taxpayertrooperbill
- True. But the UK benefits system pays a third of what the French welfare system does and around half of the Germans. People come here because of jobs.monoboy
- IRNlun60
I know it's an oversimplification but is this simply a referendum for/against Schengen?
- No. There are countries in the Schengen Zone that are not part of the EU. Besides, this has more impact on trade than immigration.Morning_star
- It's got nothing to do with intra-European migration, which we're fine with.
It's the extra-European migration that we're not happy with...detritus - ..nor, as far as I can see, is much of the general European population either.detritus
- kingkong0
^ this is exactly like the Scotland thing.
Freedom vs Serfdom.
Also EXACTLY like coming out of the Gold Standard: http://www.npr.org/sections/mone…
Short Term Catastrophe, Long term benefits.
- hans_glib0
we like the convenience of schengen therefore we should be in
we hate these scrounging immigrants theytookrjubs therefore we should be out
we like the security of being part of a larger organisation therefore we should be in
we hate the corrupt bureaucracy and overbearing regulation therefore we should be out
